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My thanks & ideas (guns, greenhorn mode, defend the fort

Postby Turtleman » Tue May 27, 2008 3:34 pm

Thanks for great game. I started to play it with friends from Czech Republic and it is really fun. We enjoy the western atmosphere, the game is easy to start to play even for people like me who do not play FPS (ok, I played Doom 2 and Blood long time ago;) and same time more I get into more I found it enjoyable and well balanced. Just pity on public serves is mostly played deathmatch, I love bank robbery mode.

I have few ideas, not sure if they have much value but just in case;)

1) Weapons are really great, just it seems to me that pistols (especially Peacemaker) and rifles (Winchester and Colt) are too similar in use. You can shoot at loooong distances with Peacekeeper about as good as with rifles and same time use rifles fast moving in close combat. Winchester rifle seems to me pretty useless, but otherwise I found weapons well balanced. But what about make more difference between them? Like make pistols harder to use at long distances and rifles harder to use when you run? I would also lower (dis)assembly time of Gatling a bit to make it more usable and make Winchester a bit better like make it a bit faster shooting (but still slower than Colt rifle) and reload faster than Colt rifle.
But I know weapon changes are very sensitive and also maybe what seems to me unbalanced or good idea now can be not so when I get deeper into game.


2) For mode without instant respawn (bank robbery) it would be great to give weak players one or two free respawns. That way even weak players can enjoy the game with more advanced ones (and same time learn it) instead of spending most of game waiting dead. We can call this something like "greenhorn mode" and lets give possibility to set up server the way that players can freely choose to enter greenhorn mode (for example at join team menu have possibility "join as greenhorn"). This would make bank robbery IMHO much more playable at public servers. And it would be clearly visible at player list who is greenhorn so I hope shame would keep good players from using it.

This is why I play bank robbery with friends selfishly at private server now. We tried public server but killers like Kari can alone kill whole team alone just with knives. Greenhorn mode would not change this but would make it less frustrating for newbies.


3) Last idea would need a lot more work (best be done on special map), but just as an idea:
respawn bonus can be used to make asymetry scenario similar to bank robbery something like "defend the forth". One smaller and better equipped team would hold position. Bigger and poorly equipped team would be attacking and have advantage of unlimited respawn back in their base. The defending team wins if keeps forth for some defined time, attackers must...not sure what now - get N of X forth flags? Destroy something with dynamite? Burn something? Something like this.

BTW first idea was make the attackers Indians equipped with knives (or tomahawks but same functionality), bows (medium fire speed low damage) and old rifles (slow at least as much as sharps) and stolen weapons. But this is even more complicated and I saw at forums there are people against adding Indians into game. In case of Indians I thought about special ability "war cry" - you can start to cry for short time and while crying all damage would be halved, maybe even faster movement a bit.

Thanks once more, see you soon (preferably through scope;)
Stepan the Turtleman
Last edited by Turtleman on Tue May 27, 2008 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Joe Kari » Tue May 27, 2008 4:27 pm

Hi Turtleman !

This is why I play bank robbery with friends selfishly at private server now. We tried public server but killers like Kari can alone kill whole team alone just with knive. Greenhorn mode would not change this but would make it less flustrating for newbies.

Oups, sorry for that ! :D



About the gatling, I think there is nothing to do, but perhaps you don't know that you can go away from it just by pressing back, left or right. And you can use it again by pressing your 'use' key while aiming for it (your cross turn to yellow). You can have another secondary weapon after the gatling is mounted because it isn't anymore in your inventory.
Gatling is really powerfull, ask Stuffstohl, he loves it ! ;)
Very high damage (just like sharp rifle, except that sharp rifle ignore boiler plate but not gatling) and very good accuracy, but there is a price : you can't move with it and it takes time to mount/unmount.


About rifle, I agree that it would be nice if they have more difference. IMO, they should be slightly more powerful and slightly more accurate than they are now, to stand a chance against pistol (in fact akimbo mid gun - S&W Schofield - win against winchester and colt rifle most of time).


About indians, hum, your 'warcry' is more about Real Time Strategy than First Person Shooter :D
IMO, it should be fun to have indians, and bow, and tomahawk. But it requires a lot of work (skin, models, etc). Arrow could be a sort of throwing knives with longer range and faster fly...

About your 'greenhorn' idea, I think too many people will 'join greenhorn', it will become the default bank robbery gameplay, so I desagree...
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Postby Turtleman » Tue May 27, 2008 4:41 pm

Hi Kari, no need to apologize, hope one day you will see we are no longer such an easy prey;)

About your 'greenhorn' idea, I think too many people will 'join greenhorn', it will become the default bank robbery gameplay, so I desagree...


It would be up to server owner to allow player choose greenhorn freely or not. If too misused at public servers, just disable it at server settings a let ask players in chat to set this status by admin.

Or do you have some other idea how to resurect bank robbery at public servers? I love this mode a lot but it is not much fun for weak players in mixed-level team now. Not because they get killed fast but because they spend more time by waiting dead than playing.

About rifle, I agree that it would be nice if they have more difference. IMO, they should be slightly more powerful and slightly more accurate than they are now, to stand a chance against pistol (in fact akimbo mid gun - S&W Schofield - win against winchester and colt rifle most of time).


I love akimbo! It is too hard for me to use now (I mean shoot fast using both guns, my aiming still sucks when I try this) but I like the idea if you spend a lots of time training you can use two revolvers as deadly weapon. Not true in real world, but very western-movie like. Problem I see if you make rifles globally a bit better is that for beginners a and mid-level players they become ultimate weapons, Colt rifle is close enough to this for these levels now.
You are speaking more about rebalancing (thing I can not speak much until I will get much better) but I am thinking more about making more different. Therefore I was thinking to make them a bit less accurate when running and make pistols little less accurate at long range. Or maybe just make pistols little less accurate at long range. Or something else;)

BTW how stands in your opinions at close range akimbo vs. sawed-off shotgun?
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Postby Pardner » Tue May 27, 2008 11:11 pm

The skill difference between new players and the experienced players its a major problem. I think deathmatch is actually harder for new players because they are against multiple experienced players at once. If you play BR mode, try to split up the teams so that each team has some new players and some experienced players. And to you new players: follow the experienced players... they know where to go!
hmmm there used to be a "Beginners Guide to WQ3 (SG)" somewhere hereon the forums, but it vanished when the forums crashed. I started to revive it, but didn't get it finished. Maybe I'll find what I had and post it and let others finish it!

Welcome to the forums Turtleman. Hehe... when Kari start I had to put on a handycap when I played him just to be fair! :D Now he is one of the top contenders!!! I am sure you and your gang will warm up quickly too.
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Postby Turtleman » Wed May 28, 2008 12:00 am

I think deathmatch is actually harder for new players because they are against multiple experienced players at once.

It is true, but now usually servers are far from full so there are mixed bots and players so even as a complete beginner it is fun to try (my recent experience). Death in deathmatch is not so big issue, you respawn and continue playing. Also game mechanics works nice here (because there is no way to restore health and because one lucky shot to head can kill everybody) even as a beginner you can kill advanced players sometimes - not true for example in old Doom 2 or Quake Arena.

If you play BR mode, try to split up the teams so that each team has some new players and some experienced players. And to you new players: follow the experienced players... they know where to go!

Best advice, sure. But contrary to death match mode bank robbery for me as newbies was much more frustrating - much more time I spent dead than alive. Sure we play games to meet some challenge;) But "greenhorn mode" can make this a little more bearable.

BTW my experience is that you as a beginner you are definitely not any help but deadly handicap for friendly leading player in BR. If you go together you
1) make him slow
2) limit his paths to obvious ways (because you can't jump/climb roofs etc properly)
3) unmask him because you can't hide
4) ...and if this not enough to let you both get killed you kill him by wild shot if friendly fire is not turned off:)))

hmmm there used to be a "Beginners Guide to WQ3 (SG)" somewhere hereon the forums, but it vanished when the forums crashed. I started to revive it, but didn't get it finished. Maybe I'll find what I had and post it and let others finish it!

Would be great even unfinished now and in progress. I finally found all informations but have them at one place could help a lot. But biggest help now would be standalone installer. OpenArena installation is too complicated for people with little computer knowledge. I will try to get little more promo for this game in my country/language once it has standalone installer.
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Wed May 28, 2008 1:15 am

But biggest help now would be standalone installer.

Yep.
Some good ideas in this thread btw. But I'm afraid any changes will probably have to wait for now. Having enough trouble just finishing our loose ends now as it is. Hopefully, we'll have a stronger community after the SA is out & some new volunteers can help shape the game from there. I have big hopes for a community driven evolution of this game someday. The current dev team is just about out of gas.

When are you guys playing? I may have a couple of days off from work at the end of the week. I'll keep an eye on the servers while I attempt to finish some more stuff for the SA.
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Postby Pardner » Wed May 28, 2008 4:47 am

OK Turtleman, I have finished and posted the "Beginners Guide". Have a looks see, maybe you might pick-up some tricks. Gunslingers let me know what you think there :D
viewtopic.php?p=9387#9387
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Postby DeUgli » Wed May 28, 2008 11:07 pm

Turtleman wrote:BTW my experience is that you as a beginner you are definitely not any help but deadly handicap for friendly leading player in BR.


If your team is organized, a weak player can go in first and help spot the enemy by making them shoot at him, and maybe wound the enemy. Then the remaining team members will have an advantage. I have never actually been on a team which is organized enough to use this tactic, however, so it is just my theory. :lol:
Irgendeiner wartet immer.
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