With cordite in the air, splintered steel, shell casings and powder burns, there’s only one explanation...
Pre SG 1.0 archive

Postby Joe Kari » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:05 am

Hi !

The final release has been uploaded to the server !
Same link ! ( wq3public/downloads/beta_testing/maps/joekari_pack1.zip )
Those who have downloaded the temporary files zzz_alamo1.pk3 and zzz_joekarimat1.pk3 should erase them !

Have fun !
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Postby Tequila » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:00 pm

Hi great,

I just put your new version on smokinguns.fr server. I still saw few nice addins ;)

For testers, remember smokinguns.fr password is the same than Hika's server: polompom

Have fun !
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Postby Joe Kari » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:24 pm

Hi,

Okey, very bad news...
Maybe some of you are aware of this, but last night, RAWHIDE has crashed many time with Alamo, everytime just after the warmup.

I have found the reason of the bug. It's not related to windows xp used on RAWHIDE, and not related with retail Q3. It is simply a bug (known or unknown) in the public WQ3 version 2.2.
Unfortenately, we haven't spot this during the beta-test because everyone is also betatester of the SA that has new qvm. For this reason, when we have tested it with Tequila on his Test Server with 8 bots, all has worked fine (because of course, on his test server he has newer code than 2.2).

If you remove wq3_pakZ.pk3 and wq3_pakZ_current.pk3 from your current install it will crash the same way. In fact I have found that only the file "vm/qagame.qvm" found in wq3_pakZ.pk3 is needed. With this file it runs perfectly.

This bug is related to respawn. I don't have found changelog for the pakZ.pk3 but I guess that someone has changed something related to respawn (Torhu ?). In fact I used the key nobots=1 for some of my deathmatch respawn. This provide me to have respawn inside botclip, and only allow human to respawn there. If I remove all nobots key it works fine with WQ3 2.2 ... ... ...

No problem with the BR version, cause it uses "CTF" respawn, and the key "nobots" don't exist for CTF respawn (a thing that should be changed, cause nobots key is very usefull).

So here our option :

- I can make a fix for my map that disallow bots until the SA, it's simply a pk3 that will overwrite my aas file with an empty one for deathmatch, but with the minbot feature on server, it will cause the chat to be flooded with error everytime the server would add a bot

- Disable bot for Alamo server side until the SA (WQ, not BR), I don't know if it's complicated or not, I only remember that long time ago Hika has done something like that on Wasteland : the minbot was dependant to the map

- I can remove all nobots key until the SA, but bots will sometime respawn into botclip and would be stuck

- I can remove botclip around respawn point and remove the nobots key but... BSPC will never compile my map because of too much complexity... or if it would, my AAS file would be huge (so bots will kill servers's CPU)... For example, the whole church is inside a huge botclip, bot can't respawn there. It saves me a lot of compile time and a lot of memory for AAS...

- Move respawn away from botclip and remove nobots key... but respawn points have been placed there for some good reason, like preventing spawnkilling. I always place respawn where visibility is dim. It will waste the gameplay.

- SG can provide a little bugfix, wq3_pak4.pk3, which contain only one file, the "vm/qagame.qvm" found in the wq3_pakZ.pk3, with this single file, this will provide some bugfix, my map will run, but the UI keep the same (no "Smokin' Guns" title in the UI). IMO this is the best... But I understand that you will probably not agree.

- Remove Alamo until the SA -_-' (but I will be very sad... )

- RAWHIDE can have a minbot of 2 instead of 3 until the SA, it looks like it works well on Tequila main server (my map runs fine there, and we can do a lot of restart, callvote, everything, it never crashs, and it runs since wednesday)

- Any other idea ?
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:52 pm

- Disable bot for Alamo server side until the SA (WQ, not BR), I don't know if it's complicated or not, I only remember that long time ago Hika has done something like that on Wasteland : the minbot was dependant to the map

That's probably the best solution. I'm not sure if that can be done automatically for a callvote or not, but it's easy for a level that's in rotation. I know someone I can ask about it though. I'll see if I can contact him this evening.
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Postby L3th4l » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:33 pm

Joe Kari wrote:In fact I used the key nobots=1 for some of my deathmatch respawn. This provide me to have respawn inside botclip, and only allow human to respawn there. If I remove all nobots key it works fine with WQ3 2.2 ... ... ...

No problem with the BR version, cause it uses "CTF" respawn, and the key "nobots" don't exist for CTF respawn (a thing that should be changed, cause nobots key is very usefull).



That is very strange. I use nobots=1 in train dm and it doesn't crash the server.
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Postby Coup'George » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:21 pm

Hello all

L3th4l wrote:That is very strange. I use nobots=1 in train dm and it doesn't crash the server.


I've just tested wq_train with same config than alamo, it crash with around 13~14 bots.

I just use addbot command and call a vote to restart map.


In br_alamo_tiny (CTF respawn point - ie : without nobots=1), i can play with 20 bots, tested on wq_dry, 20 bots too, and no crash.

Seems nobots=1 can crash sometimes...

(sorry for my english :)


EDIT: I can play with 20 bots on train with the SA (wq3_pakZ.pk3 and wq3_pakZ_current.pk3), no crash, with the same manipulation.
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Postby L3th4l » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:58 pm

And? That is 13 to 14 bots which servers never run, not to mention there is only 12 spawn points in train so you couldn't start a match with that many anyway. Rawhide is crashing with only 4 bots on Alamo. Slight difference.

The current version of train has been running on servers for over a year with no reports of it crashing the server. Alamo is out one day and is crashing Rawhide.. Come to think of it, Lake has nobots 1 too and I have run that with 16 bots using vanillia Q3 for frame rate testing.
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:02 pm

Hmmmm. There must be another piece to this puzzle somewhere. :?
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Postby Coup'George » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:19 pm

I just tell you nobots=1 can crash old version of wq3, nothing else.

Alamo without nobots on old wq3 = No crash. Alamo in SA and nobots = No crash.

Train in old version = Crash (with many bots, yes). Train in SA version (with many bots too) = No crash.


I don't tell you "buahahaha" wq_train is crashing server, i tell you nobots can crash server, "Slight difference".
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Postby Joe Kari » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:22 pm

@ L3th4l :
You are the kind of guy that see offense where there was nothing else than a simple notice. Wq_Dry AND BR_Alamo don't have 20 spawns point and it works. However, BR_Alamo_tiny.bsp is EXACTLY the same file than WQ_Alamo_tiny. EXACTLY. One compilation, then a copy of all files.

However, wether it works or not with wq_train is out of purpose.

My logic is simple :
* wq_alamo crash with wq2.2 with 3 bots while having "nobots=1" key on 4 spawnpoint entity
* wq_alamo don't crash if I remove all the nobots=1 key
* wq_alamo don't crash with the SA, or with the qagame.qvm found in wq_pakZ.pk3, while still having "nobots=1" key.

What will I do :
* remove as fast as possible all "nobots=1" key for the current version 2.2, and recompile the map
* restore "nobots=1" for the SA

That's clear to you ?
Sorry if it sounds harsh.
Don't have time to troll.
End of discution.
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Postby L3th4l » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:57 pm

Don't have time to troll? Sounds like you just did..

I got something for ya. I'm removing your map untill:

A) you fix it.
B) You remove the nudity. Kids under 10 play this game, shame on you..

That's clear to you ?
Sorry if it sounds harsh.
Don't have time to troll.
End of discution err discussion.
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:42 pm

WOW. Hey guys, I don't understand why tempers are flaring in here. I also don't think it's necessary to lock the topic? Btw, I personally don't have a big issue with the nude painting but I DO UNDERSTAND why some people might & that concerns me a great deal. So Joe & George have agreed earlier today (via pm's with me) that's it's best to just change to a different painting since they are going to recompile the map anyway in order to fix the issues for retail q3 servers. Sorry if anyone was out of the loop on that but I was going to mention it this evening after work. Once we have a new version, I'll test it on RAWHIDE before revising the news post.

Sigh. :cry:
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Postby Joe Kari » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:59 pm

About the painting, I just want to say that during beta-test of my map, nobody complain about those painting except G4J guys (for those who don't know them, they are Christians).
So it was a religious matter.

Today ReD says to us that in America, this kind of picture should not be seen by children (in Europa, and in France, classical artistic nude, with no erotic content could be seen by children of any age).
Therefore, it was not a religious matter anymore, so we have decided to change this painting just after ReD's PM.
It's just too bad that nobody ask us to remove it for this reason (children) before our release.

I hope that American people understand the cultural differences between America and Europa.
I apologize for that.
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:26 am

Joe Kari wrote:Today ReD says to us that in America, this kind of picture should not be seen by children (in Europa, and in France, classical artistic nude, with no erotic content could be seen by children of any age).

It's a parental decision actually. There is no clear right or wrong to it, imo. Some parents wouldn't have a problem with this painting while others would. But I think you are doing the right thing by changing it so that nobody will have any nudity issues & your map will get full exposure to the most players. It's simply intelligent marketing to please as many people as you can with your product. I'm only sorry I didn't explain our cultural differences earlier. Then again, America was founded with a strong belief in Christianity which is why our society is a little more strict in some areas. Anyway, problem solved. Merci.
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Postby ChainLightnin' » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:26 am

Red seems to have said everything. There are so many cultures and faiths in America, And Christians that majored in Fine Art that studied Monet, Matisse, etc. (like myself). But I suppose my grandson is still a bit too young to see my art history books! :)
Well...Mr. Chain Blue Lightnin' hisself..heh, heh!
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