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Game server information & questions.

Moderators: Pardner, Joe Kari, TheDoctor

Postby Waco Kid » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:06 am

Cheats are bad.

Edited by Pardner
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Postby moRtem » Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:32 pm

Waco, i think it is a very bad idea to post hints about how to cheat to not get caught : /



/quit
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Postby Pardner » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:33 pm

moRtem wrote:Waco, i think it is a very bad idea to post hints about how to cheat to not get caught : /


I agree with both moRterm and Waco. Cheats are extremely hard to catch if not impossible, but we know this. Cheat prevention/detection is a major concern and is already being addressed for 1.1. Therefore, like moRterm said, we dont need to go into lengthy discussions about the hows and whys of cheating.

If you think someone is cheat, find an active admin (email, IM, IRC, VoIP, etc). Paladin does not have an active admin. If you don't like cheaters, play on another server.
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Postby Bodie » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:42 pm

If you see someone you suspect of cheating, record him and send me the demo.
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Postby Waco Kid » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:17 am

moRtem wrote:Waco, i think it is a very bad idea to post hints about how to cheat to not get caught : /



/quit


Yea, it's not like any kid who can spell "google" and "aimbot" can find one of the several major cheat sites with downloads and forums full of information :roll:

You can't fix cheating. You can't stop cheating. You can edit out my posts my all want, it won't change a thing. The best you can do is get a minor respite with a new version until they catch up. SG is low player count enough that it lasted a long time, but now it's as bad as any other online FPS.
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Postby Bodie » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:03 pm

Let's keep banning. Catching them isn't much less fun than playing - so the tape is rolling all day at least as far as major servers go.
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Postby TheDoctor » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:53 pm

Waco Kid wrote:The problem is that it doesn't do any good. The hackers just change IP's and keep going, either you block out a major service provider (or sometime country) in their entirety or you let them cheat.
Not true. Surprisingly, for most providers, there is a strong correlation between the IP you get assigned to and the town/area you are living in. The small, and well distributed community of SG does the rest: while some people believe they are anonymous and just one of a crowd, in most cases they are alone and naked. For well-administered banlists, the collateral damage is well acceptable.

This is probably why your post has been altered: Some players might believe you thinking there is no risk in cheating while the opposite is true. We don't want those players run into a well-grinded knife, right?
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Postby Bodie » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:26 pm

A kid we got to know as a decent player recently went dark side. He was caught and banned on his first day of his new career. Kicked out of his clan, removed from all the popular servers without hope to ever come back. He's done, gone forever, was it worth it, would he do it again? I doubt it.

Tape is rolling, lots of people are watching. And you would be surprised how many will report you as a cheater when you piss them off with a score and behaviour you shouldn't normally display. For every cheater there's a dozen of legit players angry they get killed due to unfair advantage. And they won't hesitate to get such a person banned for life.

Clans don't want to be anywhere near cheaters, when you are caught you get banned pretty much on all servers that matter and noone in clans wants to even speak to you. When we catch you, you lose your friends, your rep and your entire career. And then there's cry and excuses and begging to be allowed in again.

I saw it so many times for so many very different persons.

You can dodge justice for a while if you're lucky and smart enough, we saw those too, but sooner or later http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IStlBOX9F4o
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Postby Waco Kid » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:42 am

A few years ago a clan fell apart (another game) when the head guy was ousted in an internal power play. He responded by publicly outing himself and several (most) members of his former "elite" clan as cheaters, giving details on the cheats they used and a lot of details of how they were doing it.

Up until then no one had caught them, because they were good to begin with. I had suspected as did a lot of people because they were a little too good but no proof even from detailed specing. It was funny because the same guys who had defended them as "skillful players" were then saying they suspected something all along. Oh well.

Clans are really the mechanism that spreads cheating in large amounts. It starts with the non cheating "hacks" to play with packets and time delays to give an advantage over simple skill, but with a group things happen that don't happen with an individual. If you'll start changing packet and time adjustments for an unfair advantage over those that use default, you already have the mindset to cheat, and with more people someone will eventually try it and involve his clan friends.

You will catch people who get miraculously better overnight with no valid reason for it (although buying a new state of the art gaming computer can make a player much better overnight), you may catch hacks that have a signature in the logs like a GUID roller does (if SG has one, no idea if that's the case for this game) you won't catch the good players who cheat and research the cheats first, especially in clans where everyone tends to be normalized at a higher base skill level than average and information on cheats is much more easily distributed to a group. You might suspect because they log out and back in with each map change (but there are semi-legitimate reasons to do that as well), or they seem to know where you are, they look behind the hiding spot when your there but don't when your specing them and no one is there, but those aren't proof of cheating like the obvious newbie kid using a wallhack is, and they have big screens, hi rez mouse and fast machines and connections and run stereo sound that explains a lot of their ability (or so they will claim).

The good hackers love to catch the not so good ones, because it diverts the heat from them. They love that guy who is obvious because it gives the impression that all cheaters are obvious, when most are not. Good hackers mirror good players. They are the best of the best.

As far as IP's, you are right in some cases, that you get a range that can be tied to a tight locality, but that isn't always the case. For instance for roadrunner dsl in san diego, where I am at, I could get a large range in 24.x.x.x or 66.x.x.x with a modem reset. There was no higher granularity. That means to permanently ban a road runner user from san diego by ip you needed to ban every road runner user in san diego by IP. That might work for a low player count game like SG, but it doesn't work for most online FPS's as you will be banning many innocent players to ban one bad one. Heck, I remember on one forum I was on they banned all of Britain to stop one poster who was getting around their IP ban, because the IP range of the service provider was the IP range for GB. OTOH I am on ATT now and have a static IP. I could proxy or tunnel or possibly even spoof but I don't bother, because I don't hack, although I have been accused of it when I am playing good, especially when the long range shots seem to be landing, as have many I suppose.

The guy you banned can come back as simply as changing his service provider and having enough self control to keep his mouth shut. Next time he will be better because he knows what the telltale was that got him in the first place. If he wants to be a really good cheater he will get there eventually. Likely he's just a kid with a short attention span who has already moved happily to another game.
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