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oh no, another suggestion

Postby FisherofMen » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:57 pm

Has anyone considered giving your player the ability to lean left and right? I come from Wolfenstein and this function is huge. This would allow you to peek around corners and such. And unlike hitsounds it would not take away any realism. In fact, I think it may add to it.
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Postby mLy! » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:51 pm

It would increase camping even more!
In wolfenstein it works because of the fast gameplay.

In SG it would only slow down the game even more and would increase camping even more!
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Postby moRtem » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:49 pm

mLy! wrote:In SG it would only slow down the game even more and would increase camping even more!


fully agree

and without any offense, mouly knows what he is talking about :lol:


(seriously: something needs to be done in order to decrease the power of camping without totally taking away the realism)


/quit
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Postby FisherofMen » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:27 pm

Since you brought it up, can someone tell me or point me to a set of camping guidelines? When defending I can defend the bank as long as I am not near it? I am not quite sure about this. :?
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Postby moRtem » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:06 pm

FisherofMen wrote:Since you brought it up, can someone tell me or point me to a set of camping guidelines? When defending I can defend the bank as long as I am not near it? I am not quite sure about this. :?


at the moment there's nothing to restrict campers (except the natural feeling of shame)


/quit
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Postby FisherofMen » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:30 pm

I have that natural shame feeling regardless of any campish behavior. :P
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Postby Lucky Bro » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:29 am

Heh.. I would suggest you'll read that article from Wiki - Camping_(computer_gaming). As well as talk page from the same source - Talk:Camping_(video_gaming)
Yeah, the article will be deleted soon but if you'll read the reason you'll understand that the article is just non encyclopedic but correct.
At least the article will give you basic knowledge of the subject.

But as you can see there is no strict definition what camping is.
The camping thing going its roots to a beginning of gaming era.
And the dominant here is the competition between players. You won't complain about yourself or bots when you are playing with bots because you take it as training.
But when it comes to any player vs player game you or your opponent may complain about many-many things depend on the game. Not only camping but weapon unbalance, "bad" maps, outmapping, chat distraction, back shooting (SG only thing and in my opinion very stupid one, I haven't seen other game with such complains), etc.
As far as I understand and decided it to myself - when you enter any game there is freedom which game gives you. You are free to use everything what game gives you to beat your opponent. And here you don't care about your opponent complains. As long as game allows it - you are free to do it.
But also there are could be some rules which are dictated by game master or admin (in case of SG) or players major voice in case of votes (in case of SG again).
The good gameplay is one when there is no need in additional players rules. To make such you have to play a lot and work closely with developers - that is very hard task to perform (actually any good task is hard one).
Otherwise you'll need those second rules which are hard to inform all-the-players because we all from different countries, different cultures (even gaming cultures).
I haven't seen any restriction when I enter to any server like "Don't camp here or banned!". But may be there are some (I'm not playing much). Before that will be done - I'm free to play camp style if I want to.
To me all this camp war looks ridiculous. Since we are all friends here and no one can't dictate others how to play.

I would agree that there are some map issues when you can't hit opponent while opponent can hit you and some troubles with hit zones and weapon/money balance. But those are not players faults. Those are game faults. At current SG stage if your shooting is not perfect and you want to win - the camp strategy is fit your needs perfectly. There are some places on maps and good weapons to do it. As well as with low-ping shotguns around the corners. I think it is obvious. I don't see any reason why you can't do it if you want to. Only if admin or players collective vote via kick will prevent you (but they have to warn you before or at least inform you somehow).
I saw "camping" Clint in movies. So, why it should be prevented here?

So, in conclusion - you are free to do anything while the game allows you. You have to be warned before any kick/ban will be executed otherwise feel free to complain (here or IRC)(and better if you have the screenshot and/or demo) - all admins are easy to find and talk. Don't bother yourself with any opponent complains. It is not your fault that he is loosing. And if you have any ideas or knowledge how to improve the game - you are welcome! Forum and IRC are always opened.
Also you may not agree with me and take part in that camping war (but it is more like to be personal thing), I'm just regular player like you :)

Have a good day!
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:30 pm

Lucky Bro wrote:I saw "camping" Clint in movies. So, why it should be prevented here? - you are free to do anything while the game allows you.

Exactly. That's why you will NEVER see me call anyone a "camper" in game. (Unless I'm joking to a friend about it.) If someone kills me repeatedly from the same hiding place I'll carry some dynamite & molotovs to the location & have a little fun trying to get revenge. Crying in the console just makes people look bad imo.
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Postby Sucalakafufu » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:40 pm

ReD NeCKersoN wrote:
Lucky Bro wrote:I saw "camping" Clint in movies. So, why it should be prevented here? - you are free to do anything while the game allows you.

Exactly. That's why you will NEVER see me call anyone a "camper" in game. (Unless I'm joking to a friend about it.) If someone kills me repeatedly from the same hiding place I'll carry some dynamite & molotovs to the location & have a little fun trying to get revenge. Crying in the console just makes people look bad imo.


good point Red :) i think every spot has its type of weakness. theres a way to kill someone no matter where they are hiding. when other people call someone a camper or try to kick him for thtat style of play it looks bad. if someone is "camping" then go and kill him. its easier to hit a non-moving target ;)
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Postby Black Jack Ketchum » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:19 pm

The problem in my eyes is when somebody in the robbing team sits around to be the last in that team and basically waits to timeout, - done mostly bye people that are new to the game

One way to "correct" this is to give the point to the defending team if the round goes to timeout instead of calling it a draw.
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Postby RailedRobin » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:23 pm

The only time I've noticed camping is a problem, is when playing BR and there's only one person alive in the team that's going to rob the bank. Sometimes that person either don't know where to go, or simply doesn't care about the gold (yeah, crazy I know). Sometimes (some rounds) BR seems to turn into Team Deathmatch instead, with no one going for the gold, and some people camping where no one finds them.
To avoid this on my own part, I tend to keep track of how many team mates that's still alive, and if I'm the only one, I just don't sit and wait.
I always try to keep moving around the map, but sometimes you just have to make yourself an obvious target to lure other players out of hiding :wink:

But campers can be alot of fun too, especially if you're using molotov, like ReD said, or you could always be sneaky and knife them from behind :wink:
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Postby Clink Eastward » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:04 am

RailedRobin wrote:But campers can be alot of fun too, especially if you're using molotov, like ReD said, or you could always be sneaky and knife them from behind :wink:


I agree with all the above ;) There is no such thing as a camper in any BR game. Even if someone does decide to sit at the spawn point in BR the team looses, it's great for their frag count but who cares about frag count in a team game? (it's not BR) If you played a serious DM game with a clear structure then something like an anti camp feature could be used.

Code: Select all
Ex+

Anti Camp {
   Time: 20;
   Radius: 350;
   Damage: 20;
}


But, when you look at the community as a whole and ask what game is played more seriously then DM doesn't really even feature, the vast majority of games played with any serious aim are BR games and if there is no such thing as a camper in BR then this is a worthless feature.

I would rather the time / effort was used for a far more usefull feature, giving server admins greater control over, items, time, money and callvote options.
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Postby Joe Kari » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:44 pm

IMO, there is NO reason to add anti-camp in DM. Why doing such a thing ? This is part of the game. And of course camper are often universal target.

The only case we need something against camping is in BR, the attacking team should not camp. The defender are free to camp or not, cause they have to defend the bank. But I admit a camping attacker is quite boring, because the goal is to rob the bank. Excessive camping should be considerated as "surender" : attacker cowardly fly away, and so, it give one point to the defending team. This is the spirit of bank robbery.
But I should admit that there isn't a *perfect* rule that will make everybody happy.
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Postby Lucky Bro » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:23 pm

Joe Kari,
If you want make only attackers to move just do the round time lower than 2 minutes. I already suggested somewhere that 2 minutes is fine.
But as far as I know the reason of complaining about camping isn't just the attacking team behavior. It is about camping everywhere and every time.
The *perfect* rule is called the balanced gameplay. As long as it allows in any form camping - the camping will be there. Gameplay consist not only of rules but maps and everything which game has. Check the maps if you don't believe me or ask moRtem to show you the places (which is the best idea). The current situation with SG gameplay just allows the campers to have advance. That is what major complain about.
And there are lot of solutions (SG isn't the first game where complains about camp are present). Such as anticamp feature, for example as emergency fix. Or more hard to perform (and I prefer such) to fix maps and re-do some gameplay parts (in timing and some rules).
Camping is game style and I don't see any reason why it should be forbidden. But it must has its weak sides and allow to advance with something else. Now where are some places and situations then your chances against campers are 1/100 even if you have best aim and tactics ever.
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Postby ltmon » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:21 am

One man's camping is another man's stealth game.

I like the fact in games I play of SG, anyone who treats it like Q3 and attempts to bunny hop around in the open streets is going to eat lead very quickly. They might shout "camper" until you go out bunny hop around with them, but that's not the fun in this game IMO.

I only have played against friends here is Aus, so I don't know what the gameplay style on Euro/US pub servers is like... But on the Team IPX server we find the more successful players will creep around a bit, trying to outmaneuver each other and catch someone in the open or find them looking out a window with their back turned. Essentially everyone camps, almost all the time, and the game is slower but much more satisfying for it.

I don't recall ever finding a camping ground that can keep someone unfairly protected for any length of time anyway. The lack of medpacks and the long range of weapons just makes camping too hard.

Ltmon

P.S.: Bring on the next release! The positional sound improvements in ioquake3 make this style of gameplay work better, as you can get a much better idea of where someone is just from the sound of them reloading their Peacemaker.
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