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Postby Lucky Bro » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:57 am

ltmon,
Q3 bunny hopping is forbidden inside game code. Actually to move faster in SG you have to learn other trick.
If you move - you don't camp. Flanking is not camping.
There is really almost no one who runs along the open street in SG.
That is not the point.
If you want to understand about which sort of camping most of rational complains - you better join Jeux or clan wars and I think soon you'll find out what it is. Or wait until someone will publish the demos from such clan wars.
"You should know that the lies won't hide your flaws/No sense in hiding all of yours/You gave up on your dreams along the way" (c) "Fake it" by Seether
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Postby Joe Kari » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:41 pm

90% of camping complain are just lame.
Basicly, everytime you fool someone (and kill him) with some tactical move, you expose yourself to a lamer who will claim you are camping.

I only care for attacker's camping in BR, because BR is a round-based game, and if attackers don't move, people that have died have to wait forever. And for logical reason: if you dont want to rob the bank, then the defender wins.

Any others case are regular, and fair.

Where will be the fun if everyone play the same way ?
When entering in a room, I always check behind the door, because, just like in the old west, someone can be waiting for me and shoot me in the back. That's what make this game fun. If I forget to watch behind the door and get killed, I just blame myself.

I think people should just stop being bad looser.
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Postby mLy! » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:11 pm

100% agree

About the BR attackers camping.
Some maps really 'make it easy' for attackers to camp.
Like Santa cruz for example, attackers can get up those roofs close to their spawn and have a nice view to shoot defenders easy/early.

I think BR maps should be made in a way that attackers are forced to be moving tru hallways, corridors, or even open fields. And NOT have the abbility to cllimb up roofs and stairs and be able to shoot defenders very easily.

Offcourse there should be postitions from where the attacking team can see/hit the defenders in a defending position, but not from there own spawn

Joe Kari wrote:90% of camping complain are just lame.
Basicly, everytime you fool someone (and kill him) with some tactical move, you expose yourself to a lamer who will claim you are camping.

I only care for attacker's camping in BR, because BR is a round-based game, and if attackers don't move, people that have died have to wait forever. And for logical reason: if you dont want to rob the bank, then the defender wins.

Any others case are regular, and fair.

Where will be the fun if everyone play the same way ?
When entering in a room, I always check behind the door, because, just like in the old west, someone can be waiting for me and shoot me in the back. That's what make this game fun. If I forget to watch behind the door and get killed, I just blame myself.

I think people should just stop being bad looser.
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Postby ltmon » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:45 am

@Lucky Bro

Yep, I'm aware you can't bunny hop... but for some reason so many new players still keep trying :)

My main point is that the natural creeping-and-flanking style of gameplay that is rewarded by SG seems to be interpreted by many as "camping", and they then complain about it.
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Postby ChainLightnin' » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:07 am

Players for years have commented that SG and previous versions was one of the few games where STRATEGY actually worked, rather than just a mass blast-fest like so many others. In the REAL old west, most guys were shot in the back. That should tell you something! :D
Well...Mr. Chain Blue Lightnin' hisself..heh, heh!
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No help, sorry :(

Postby Lucky Bro » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:16 am

Ah.. There are so much complainers about everything :( And usually I don't care at all about such. If I can I just show "how to" or explain (if player wasn't swearing) - many players who played against me know that.
But I think that the game is really unbalanced. And camping takes part in that unbalance as well.
If you win the round you'll be defending team. If you'll win three rounds in a row you'll be defending team with colts. And camping with colts in some special places against remingtons makes this game really funny for those "defenders". Just take a look at the roof on Durango. One clots legshot from there and you'll be dead. With good aim and long practice it is not so hard.
To be honest I know not many guys who are using only tactics instead of camping (sitting at one place and waiting for enemy to come).
Anyway I don't care. As long as game allows - it will be so. If you have any ideas how to improve game and make it more balanced - I would like to hear them (no, I can't fix hitzones right now ;)).
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Postby ltmon » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:27 am

Off the top of my head, maybe to get better balance in BR is to make it (*gulp*) slightly more like Enemy Territory.

- Allow more time for each round so the attackers get a better chance to play tactics
- Allow multiple money bags to be stolen from multiple points... so the win or lose can be bigger and smaller for more or less points. This will also forcibly spread out the defence.
- Allow small number of respawns (say 3). This will cut down camping, as you've probably been spotted by the player you just killed and they won't fall into your trap again (maybe).

I just thought these changes off the top of my head, and I'm certainly no game designer: there could be gaping holes for all I know :)
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Postby Sucalakafufu » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:55 am

ltmon wrote:- Allow multiple money bags to be stolen from multiple points... so the win or lose can be bigger and smaller for more or less points. This will also forcibly spread out the defence.


there are two money bags in different locations in every BR map. if both are taken to the checkpoint around the same time, the amount of money is slightly more (if i remember correctly from my friend and i testing)

ltmon wrote:- Allow small number of respawns (say 3). This will cut down camping, as you've probably been spotted by the player you just killed and they won't fall into your trap again (maybe).


so the person who dies will respawn in a certain amount of time? i think this makes it unfair for the defending team because the defenders only have a certain amount of bullets (not to mention the amount of time taken to reload)

i think the attackers just need to predict where the defenders will be. if they were killed from a spot the last round, they should be careful around that spot during the next round.

ltmon wrote:- Allow more time for each round so the attackers get a better chance to play tactics


this would just be up to the server admin. the amount of time determined for a round is set with a variable. it shouldnt have to be a standard for all servers to have more time in a BR round.

Lucky Bro wrote:To be honest I know not many guys who are using only tactics instead of camping


IMO if guys don't use every aspect of the game it is their loss. so i don't really care too much if someone is camping the whole time. it is his loss. there are many many ways to kill a camper. its much easier to hit a non-moving target ;)

if someone is camping, its ok. i just use tactics, camping, and skill (all together mind you) in order to take down the camper. so IMO "camping" or staying in one spot for a certain amount of time is something you need to do sometimes in the game in order to: trick an opponent, defend a post, or hide for a bit. so i wouldn't say that tactics is better than camping. camping is a part of tactics. tactics plus skill will result in a better player. so if a player only uses the "camping" part of tactics, then NO ONE SHOULD COMPLAIN because that person is limiting what he can do in the game. all the complainers should just use all of their skill and tactics to OWN the camper.
instead of just a bunch of complaints which do nothing to a camper, the camper would have a body filled with lead to make him rethink his actions!!! :D


BTW i think that the game is very balanced for a shooter. i mean balanced in the sense that a skilled player can kill another skilled player. there are some tricks to being better in this game and they can be learned. but if what everyone means by "balanced" is a game that a new player can play as good or almost as good as any other player then i don't think any game should be "balanced" :)
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Postby FisherofMen » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:52 pm

Thanks to everyone for the explanations. I now have a much fuller grasp of this whole camping issue.
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Postby dowoshek » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:36 pm

Camping players are not so painful for others in a typical CaptureTheFlag mode with unlimited and immediate (i.e. 20seconds) respawns. So maybe we should try it in place of BR mode. If you really care about realism, you can always imagine that two bunch of bad guys are fighting and stealing money from each other... But is it really so important to make this game so extremely realistic? I think it shouldn't be the main point... and the main is FUN, right? And there'd be always a choice: BR or CTF (or rather STB for StealTheBag). A mode like this would also be more friendly for new players, who usually spend much time waiting (BORED) for new round.
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Postby /dev/random » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:49 pm

Two ideas that just popped into my head are:

Visible footsteps, which disappear after a short time. This would allow to keep up with teammates as well as to creep after campers, while they are moving into their location.

Another idea is some sort of whistling-sound from the camper's location, as if the camper got bored and started to whistle :D
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Postby Lucky Bro » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:06 pm

A new mode is on the plans.
After major fixes for 1.1 will be done - the new hot BR will be released too.
As far as I know everyone likes the idea.

And whistling (not whistle but some sound instead) is part of anticamp feature (which is turnable by admin and maybe by votes). As far as I know there is some work done about it, so I hope it will be released in 1.1 too.
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Postby RailedRobin » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:55 pm

dowoshek wrote:But is it really so important to make this game so extremely realistic?


I was thinking of this just the other night, and it occured to me that in many wild west movies, people are camping.
Just think about it: The bad guys come riding into town, on their way to the saloon or the sheriffs or whatever, and all of a sudden the good guys spring a trap! On the balconies, on the roofs, behind the stable, people everywhere. People who's just been sitting there for the last hour, waiting for the bad guys.

This kind of camping I would actually like to see in gameplay. I guess it can be done when two clans play against each other and there's a lot more tactics involved than just everyone running in for the kill/gold.
Imagine a BR game where the badguys don't face any threat and are allowed to walk straight into the bank, they'd probably be a bit unsettled and know that something is going to happen really soon, and when they step out, the defenders appear. A little showdown.


(Besides: If I were given a gun and put in a town where everyone was trying to kill me just for sport, I guess I would find a hole to hide in :wink: )
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Postby Clink Eastward » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:53 pm

RailedRobin wrote:This kind of camping I would actually like to see in gameplay. I guess it can be done when two clans play against each other and there's a lot more tactics involved than just everyone running in for the kill/gold.


I agree 100%.

There has to be other people here that still hold onto the notion that good team work is your best weapon when faced with a bigger / stronger opponent? I agree robbing the bank against a well armed team is hard work but surely this creates a whole new depth to a game? People are paid to defend the bank, if you rob the bank you keep the reward.

Some simple tweaks :

Always swap teams every round.
Frag count server side option in BR games.
Money earned is shared amongst team.
You don't earn money for kills.
You earn $10 for each surviving team member.
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Postby Joe Kari » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:50 pm

Always swap teams every round.

I have coded this a long time ago, just after the 1.0 release, there is a cvar that controle teamrole in BR.
See this thread
If you want this behaviour, type (in SG 1.1):
/br_teamrole 4
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