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Hitzones and spread

Postby moRtem » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:47 pm

Just a quick question which i keep asking myself.

What's the purpose of the different hitzones (legs, head, foot, back, ...) when it mostly depends on spread which part you actually hit ?


The funniest happenings occur when you only see some player's head, and aim/shoot at it. Mostly this ends up in chest and leg-shots.


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Postby Slizer » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:35 pm

I have to admit that I have had the same when only seeing the head and end up hitting the legs or chest.
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Postby Joe Kari » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:47 pm

Have in mind that you can shoot through some part of the geometry (like wood, grass,...). So maybe you only see the head but shoot-thru some wood and hit the legs.

And BTW, with pistol and rifle, you hit precisely the right hitzone ;)
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Postby moRtem » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:03 pm

Have in mind that you can shoot through some part of the geometry (like wood, grass,...). So maybe you only see the head but shoot-thru some wood and hit the legs.


No doubt about that.

Joe Kari wrote:And BTW, with pistol and rifle, you hit precisely the right hitzone ;)


So i just hallucinate the existance of spread ?


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Postby Tequila » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:12 pm

No you didn't hallucinate.

With the current beta engine, you can experiment the debug cvar g_debugWeapon to check your weapon trace, even if this feature is not fully accurate. This will show you how spread is behaving...

To test it, launch a short map locally, like Tillian Farm, set bot_minPlayers to something like 16 or more, set bot_pause to 1, then g_debugWeapon to 1. After that, you can search for spawn bots and shoot at them, check the hit messages and look at your weapon trace... And I agree, hits are wrong sometime... You can even try to start a local server and use g_debugDamage cvar set to 1 or 2 and you'll be definitively convinced.

You may want to use the nice torhu's "spread" new command to look how spread changes the accuracy.

So yes there is a bug around there.
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Postby moRtem » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:46 pm

thanks for your reply tequila.

But i didn't create this topic because i want to know how spread works and behaves.

I created this topic because i know and feel how spread behaves.


To repeat the core-question of this thread:
"What's the purpose of the different hitzones (legs, head, foot, back, ...) when it mostly depends on spread which part you actually hit ? "


spread = being lucky or unlucky


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Postby mLy! » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:20 pm

Sorry if i am stealing your topic mortem, but I have an on topic suggestion.
Because me too I think the spread is too random, definatly with the very weird/wrong hitboxes and how they move.

My suggestion is to equal the damage of certain hitboxes.
Example:
Head, neck, schoulder: same damage
Torso, arms, hands, groin, back: same damage
Legs and feet: same damage

This could imo reduce some of the randomness in this game
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Postby Tequila » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:15 pm

spread is spread... Don't say stupid sentence like "spread = being lucky or unlucky", what I feel is you just want to confuse everybody.
Spread is an angle and the engine will just do a trace from your eyes to your aiming point, but the trace will be randomly in that spread. Spread is not so large you'll hit head or shoulder at 100 feet, but you should hit mostly head if you aim head, and maybe chest or nothing sometime.

I'm giving you tools to be sure you are not just feeling. What I gave you is a debug tool to see your traces. When you see your trace ending around head, but the engine saying your shot shoulders, that's a bug in the engine. I'll take a deeper look in the code later. So I'll eventually detect where can be the bug.

So to take back your question:
What's the purpose of the different hitzones (legs, head, foot, back, ...) when it mostly depends on spread which part you actually hit ?

Then I don't agree with you. Actually "hit a zone MOSTLY depending on spread" is wrong. It mostly depends on your aiming skill. Btw sometime the engine says you hit a zone, but this is the wrong zone, and that is a bug. And yes that bug seems random. But the false hit may be 10% of the time, maybe more but not mostly. Are we okay with that ?
And hitzones are what they are intended to be, "head", "arm", etc... I repeat don't trouble yourself with bugs... but you're free to fill good, fair and clean bug reports to help us to focus on really bad bugs.
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Postby Sucalakafufu » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:09 pm

i agree with tequila that the spread is not what makes up MOST of the shot. granted it does help make the shot go off sometimes but not by too much (unless you are running and shooting then maybe)

mLy wrote:My suggestion is to equal the damage of certain hitboxes.
Example:
Head, neck, schoulder: same damage
Torso, arms, hands, groin, back: same damage
Legs and feet: same damage


well then wouldn't this make headshots something that does not matter anymore? i think headshots are always one of those "yes i did it!" things in an FPS. this would make a neck shot or shoulder shot the same 0_0 and i hit those places a decent amount mind u. it would sadden me to see someone i shot in the shoulder die at the same speed as one i shot in the head :( same goes for the other hitboxes. if i hit feet, i hit feet not a leg :P


the false hit bug is kind of annoying but if its a random bug i dont expect it to be fixed anytime soon. so its sometime i believe we need to live with and just trust that should be the spots u hit :)
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Postby mLy! » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:36 pm

Sucalakafufu wrote:well then wouldn't this make headshots something that does not matter anymore? i think headshots are always one of those "yes i did it!" things in an FPS. this would make a neck shot or shoulder shot the same 0_0 and i hit those places a decent amount mind u. it would sadden me to see someone i shot in the shoulder die at the same speed as one i shot in the head


I gave a quick example, Shoulder good be in the 'body' hitbox.

@Tequila: I agree with you, but sometimes hitting feet instead of leg, or arm instead of chest is not about aiming, but more about beeing lucky.
I don't have a problem with this 'per se', but the difference can be very big (like feet vs leg) that it sometimes seems stupid to be.
See my previous post on how I would fix this.
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Postby moRtem » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:45 pm

Tequila wrote:spread is spread... Don't say stupid sentence like "spread = being lucky or unlucky", what I feel is you just want to confuse everybody.
Spread is an angle and the engine will just do a trace from your eyes to your aiming point, but the trace will be randomly in that spread.


You say yourself, the trace will be randomly within the given spread. Isn't Randomness something, where you can be either lucky to land a damageful hit, or unlucky to only hit a body-part like foot (or even having a total miss)?

Spread is not so large you'll hit head or shoulder at 100 feet, but you should hit mostly head if you aim head, and maybe chest or nothing sometime.


If you really believe that, you should spend some minutes ingame.

Or you mean 100 units instead of feet? -- Then you might be correct, but you even land a hit with Sawed Off on that distance.

I'm giving you tools to be sure you are not just feeling. What I gave you is a debug tool to see your traces.


That's what i did now, to serve you some footage -- check those vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKQaClQgPFE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo4muyyolLg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAH1CJot3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieA2GULhdXo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVKs-rM1GGA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTu57SX3bRc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0tcdNlJlX0

Since Vid-Quality is poor, you can additionally find my demos on
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PSPTVTYH

I recommend to watch them with 1.1b3 and /g_debugweapon 1.


Aren't the scenes in this footage ridiculous ? - What are those hitzones for, if you can't hit them anyway most of the time?

Apart from that, please keep in mind that i stood still, i suppose spread is even higher when walking/running/strafing (according to torhu's weapon-stats-topic spread gets multiplicated with 1.4 in case of walking/running/strafing).


You may want to use the nice torhu's "spread" new command to look how spread changes the accuracy.


I know how it changes accuracy - that's why i created this topic. And everyone else who got a bit of aim-skill knows about the spread-spoiled accuracy aswell.

i agree with tequila that the spread is not what makes up MOST of the shot. granted it does help make the shot go off sometimes but not by too much (unless you are running and shooting then maybe)


oh my...



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Postby Joe Kari » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:05 am

@ mortem:
And ?...

What Tequila said is that you magnify luckyness. I have played against people that aim for the head and yes, it does change the whole thing.

Almost every one want to keep hitzone in this game, no way we remove that.

If you really believe that, you should spend some minutes ingame.

That's right, I'm not sure we are talking about the same game.

I have just launched Alamo and perform the same test at the same distance with both SG 1.0 and 1.1beta3... man, weapons are much more accurate than in your video. My spread looks 2 times smaller than your.
I guess you either tune weapon spread, or your mouse was moving a bit while shooting.
This problem looks definitively on your side.



@ mLy:
I agree, there is something wrong with the arm hitzone.
The best way to fix that IMO, should be that arm, hand and foot hitzone should not stop the bullet, allowing it to follow it's line and try to touch another hitzone (with something like 50% of remaining damage)...
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Postby moRtem » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:16 am

Joe Kari wrote:What Tequila said is that you magnify luckyness. I have played against people that aim for the head and yes, it does change the whole thing.


Yes -- aiming at head equals to hardly ever land a hit, even when you are aiming accurate.

Almost every one want to keep hitzone in this game, no way we remove that.


I didn't say i want to remove hitzones. I said, hitzones are useless due to the fact, that it is totally luckbased which one you hit (or if you hit at all).


I have just launched Alamo and perform the same test at the same distance with both SG 1.0 and 1.1beta3... man, weapons are much more accurate than in your video.


Had a lucky spread? :D

I guess you either tune weapon spread, or your mouse was moving a bit while shooting.
This problem looks definitively on your side.


Would be nice if you wouldn't accuse me of providing false footage. Everything you see in this vids is default settings. Plus it's impossible that my mouse even moved a milimeter, since i didn't touch it while shooting. Like also written in my vid-descriptions, i used a keyboard-bind to shoot.


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Postby Joe Kari » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:22 am

I didn't accuse you of anything, that was just suggestions, since it happens only to you.
In your headshot test with a non-moving target, at the same distance than you, with wichester 1866 like you, I get 2/3 of headshot. Without crouching.

Whatever the reason, the problem remain on your side.
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Postby moRtem » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:31 am

Joe Kari wrote:I didn't accuse you of anything, that was just suggestions, since it happens only to you


When this only happens to me, then you say, all the weapon-spread-stuff is taken care of clientside?


.
In your headshot test with a non-moving target, at the same distance than you, with wichester 1866 like you, I get 2/3 of headshot. Without crouching


I aimed at the middle of the head (where the nose is supposed to be), just to be exact. Additionally, i want to say, that i recorded every scene only once and immediately converted it into an avi (so that you don't come to the idea, that i made every try a billion times and only converted the worst then).

--

Apart from that: Wow, you had a lucky spread and did 2/3 headshots with a rifle on a non-moving-distance, while you are not moving yourself, on medium distance. That's a hell of a rifle!


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