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Postby moRtem » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:49 am

mLy! wrote:What? Are you telling me you feel no diference playing on USA server than on EU server?


Of course there's a difference, since your packets still need to arrive at the server and vice verca. But unlagged makes the "what-you-see-is-what-you-get"-part. You shoot stomache, you hit stomache (at least you should, if there wasn't the random-spread-'feature').

If the game wasn't unlagged, you would have to aim in front of the running player to hit him.

And about timenudge, even IF it makes you feel skippy as mentioned, then still SG is too slow paced (g_speed and general) to notice it.


Got a better explanation regarding the issue the initial poster stated here? -- cl_timenudge DOES 'cause this effect in other q3-engine games at least

And I use timenudge when playing on an american server and it does seem to help a bit, same goes for some USA players I know playing on EU server.


Helping you to get skippy and not be hit, or helping you to play? -- The point is: A player with 150 ping needs to react 100 ms faster than a player with 50 ping (considering both got timenudge 0). 100 ms is a lot, so this is probably the problem you experience when playing on an American server.

An other thing is maxpackets, for the next release (1.1) we should really increase the default value in the config.


i guess also rate and snaps need an adjustment

Noone should modify the default values, as they are meant to fit for everyone


Fit for everyone 10 years ago. Time changed, Hardware too.. It would definately be a good thing to adjust the values.

There might still be players that are on dialup.


That's an absolute minority i guess, and if so, they are still able to change the values back to a dial-up-setting.

Unlagged servers are primarily for dialup and ISDN players and maybe 3rd world DSL such as in India.


that's absolute nonsense. Playing on a non-unlagged server - even with ping 40 - is totally different than playing on an unlagged server.


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Postby Joe Kari » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:11 am

The point is: A player with 150 ping needs to react 100 ms faster than a player with 50 ping (considering both got timenudge 0).

No.
It is far more complicated.
In every Unlagged game, if you are the guy with the 150ms ping, and you are hiding behind the corner of a wall, then, you strafe in the alley, you will see everyone in that alley instantly, and BEFORE anybody can see you (your movement reaches the server 150ms later + 50ms to reaches the other guy). Of course if you shoot, your shot reaches the server 150ms later too, so there is no major advantage, but at least, you have slightly more chances than the 50ms guy to hit first. If you kill him with the first bullet, even if he "shot" you (client side), after backward reconcialition, his "hit" will not have any effect (when the shot of the 50ms guy reaches the server, he is already dead).

You only have the full 100ms handicap in the famous case of a "race of fire".
Other case mitigate this handicap.
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Postby Waco Kid » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:00 am

So what's the deal? Are these players intentionally making themselves hard to hit? I'm not talking about high ping players, they are hard to hit but mostly they are worse off for it, I'm talking about these low ping guys who always score high (sometimes overwhelmingly so) and shoot straight themselves, but are somehow as hard to hit as a high ping guy.
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Postby moRtem » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:17 pm

Ah yes, Joe Kari. I guess you are right about that point (in terms of SG). In faster games you often suffer the problem that you are moving too fast with high ping, and therefor you run into a room that you think it's empty, and a few moments after the enemies appear.

Waco Kid wrote:So what's the deal? Are these players intentionally making themselves hard to hit?


In my previous q3-engine game: Yes, they did it intentionally.

About SG: I think people simply don't know about the real effect of timenudge, and think it's great to have a command that gets your ping shown in scoreboard close to zero. But i aswell believe, that as soon as ppl get to know about the skip-effect, it will be abused heavily (happened so in my previous game).

So i still think it should be disabled or capped to allow only positive values in Smokin' Guns.


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Postby mLy! » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:34 pm

moRtem wrote:
mLy! wrote:What? Are you telling me you feel no diference playing on USA server than on EU server?


If the game wasn't unlagged, you would have to aim in front of the running player to hit him.


That's exactly what it is, and timenudge reduces this 'aiming in front' a bit.
And I can only speak from my experience, but aswell on public as private (1v1) I never noticed anything weird about people using timenudge. Definatly not what the OP is describing.
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Postby Waco Kid » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:41 pm

What about using maxpackets or rate in to also affect your lag?

I know this isn't my imagination, some people are much harder to hit than others, but are not suffering from the high lag effects themselves.
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Postby moRtem » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:46 am

mLy! wrote:
If the game wasn't unlagged, you would have to aim in front of the running player to hit him.


That's exactly what it is, and timenudge reduces this 'aiming in front' a bit.


Definately not, except you played on a server with deactivated unlagged.

And I can only speak from my experience, but aswell on public as private (1v1) I never noticed anything weird about people using timenudge. Definatly not what the OP is describing.


Timenudge definately causes the effects descriped here. Especially the "mainly low-ping-players"-part should convince you about a certain correlation between timenudge and the descriped problems.

What about using maxpackets or rate in to also affect your lag?


The worst lag-maker (out of my experience from Quake3) are negative timenudge-settings. Using stupid maxpackets/rate settings is also a part of the problem, but the major one is timenudge. Best would be to cap all network-settings to reasonable settings (which are NOT the same, as they have been 10 years ago). E.g. rate could be definately highered to at least 8000. cl_timenudge is simply not needed in an unlagged game, and therefor should be capped to only positive values. Max_packets could be made 40 minimum too. And snaps could be locked to 40.

---

and PS: My opinion is based on almost 10 years of onlinegaming in q3-engine games.


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Postby Waco Kid » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:45 pm

So, since some servers are not capping these values, what settings should I use to get the same effect, in order to remain competitive with the players that are using this effect?
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Postby Joe Kari » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:09 am

Ah yes, Joe Kari. I guess you are right about that point (in terms of SG). In faster games you often suffer the problem that you are moving too fast with high ping, and therefor you run into a room that you think it's empty, and a few moments after the enemies appear.

That's another case. A map is divided into cluster, that's is part of the optimization processing: only cluster visible from your current position are displayed. This is used in both client-side and server-side, the server doesn't send entity to you, that are in cluster you can't "see" (well, that's not really "see", but "possibly see"). Most of time, they are sent before being really in sight, but sometime the timing is more tight. It all depends on how the map was made.
In SG, most of map are not well optimized, so you can't see that effect, but the drawback is that your video card draw a lot more tris than needed.
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