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Postby Sucalakafufu » Sat May 01, 2010 9:41 pm

moRtem wrote:
Sucalakafufu wrote:If both teams were theoretically perfectly equal in skill and knowledge of the game, then it should be a hard fought battle till the end.


I disagree with this. Smokin' Guns - the way it is at the moment - favours camp, and even more, it favours camp in a way that opponents are chanceless. E.g. think of Santacruz -- the way from attackers spawn to the bank via the direct corridor on the very right can't be passed as soon as one opponent is camping on the boxes (and therefor only having his head visible). - another example: Mexico. for defenders it is impossible to move from Church to the big open Area which leads to money escape-point as soon as just one opponent covers this area from the balcony. -- another example: br_alamo_tiny - impossible to kill someone on the roof of defender's spawnplace -- example: cobber - impossible to kill someone on the roofs -- i could continue this with every single map


/quit


I would have to agree that these are places that make it HARD to kill the defender, but I have to disagree about the IMPOSSIBLE part. I've done it. Other players have done it. Also, you don't necessarily have to kill a person from across the map when they are in those spots. There is usually a way around it. Another thing, your teammates play a huge role in how well you do in a BR match. So depending on your strategy as a team, you can get around campers. Even if you argue that strategies wouldn't work in 2v2 battles, that doesn't apply to all maps. Meaning some maps are better played with more people, others, not so much.

Either way, I would say we should still test the Durango modifications no matter what our opinion is about those modifications.
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Postby moRtem » Sat May 01, 2010 11:35 pm

Sucalakafufu wrote:I would have to agree that these are places that make it HARD to kill the defender, but I have to disagree about the IMPOSSIBLE part.


Like i told you the other day at IRC: Show me, that you are able to kill me in those spots with standard-weapons. I am not much of a camper, and i surely lack aim-skill when standing still, but i am confident that you won't stand a chance as soon as i get in those positions.

I've done it. Other players have done it.


When i shoot 12 bullets at a head and mostly miss with 11, then it's pretty much impossible to kill someone in a serious game, since he is able to aim at your full body at the same time. And the funny part is: even if you hit a player where you can only see head (behind a massive wall), you quite often only hit his arm, chest or whatever.

Also, you don't necessarily have to kill a person from across the map when they are in those spots. There is usually a way around it.


with newbies camping in those positions, i agree - with better players in these positions i partially agree, but as soon as there are more campers covering each other, i totally disagree.

But again: Show me your tactics ingame.


Even if you argue that strategies wouldn't work in 2v2 battles, that doesn't apply to all maps. Meaning some maps are better played with more people, others, not so much.


The more players, the better campers are able to cover each other, and the less chances the opponents got.

--


Something else: Campspots like Bank on durango aren't as much of a hassle since the bank-sign on top isn't bullet-proof. If such objects would be used for campspots in general, the problem would be solved too i suppose.


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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Sun May 02, 2010 4:52 am

moRtem wrote:Smokin' Guns - the way it is at the moment - favours camp, and even more, it favours camp in a way that opponents are chanceless.

Very odd that the bank ever gets robbed... given the hopelessness of it all.
moRtem wrote:E.g. think of Santacruz -- the way from attackers spawn to the bank via the direct corridor on the very right can't be passed as soon as one opponent is camping on the boxes (and therefor only having his head visible). - another example: Mexico. for defenders it is impossible to move from Church to the big open Area which leads to money escape-point as soon as just one opponent covers this area from the balcony. -- another example: br_alamo_tiny - impossible to kill someone on the roof of defender's spawnplace -- example: cobber - impossible to kill someone on the roofs -- i could continue this with every single map

I think I finally understand your position now!! :D

IE: Anyone who makes use of impenetrable cover & defends such a position in a strategical effort to win the game is a stinking camper. In other words, if an attacking player & his/her team are not capable of coordinating a valid offense against said defensive positions, nor contemplate alternate routes to the objective, the game itself is obviously at fault.

Afterall, one should be able to just stroll into the bank & simply walk out with the gold ...all the while firing magic bullets that are impervious to static objects of varying material & thickness, & with 100% accuracy. Just as it was in the old west.

Thanks for the clarification.
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Postby moRtem » Sun May 02, 2010 10:34 am

ReD NeCKersoN wrote:I think I finally understand your position now!! :D
[...]
Thanks for the clarification.


I guess you just don't want to understand that these camp-spots got nothing to do with "tactical positions". Having spots where you can't be killed unbalance the game pretty much.

As soon as you play against a team which does nothing else beside sitting in those spots, the game is getting absurd.

An attacker simply can't "sneak up" to such a team and kill it, when every area you need to go through is covered from such ultimate-shelter-spots.

--

But then again: In public games you won't notice that problem as much as in clan-games. From your posts i get the feeling that you don't care about the competetive side anyways, so let's just stop the discussion here.

Altough i think it is a pity that you ignore the competetive part, since this usually boosts activity of a game really a lot.


Last but not least: I also invite you to show me your strategies against those spots ingame. Probably take Suca with you, so you could show me in a 2v2 at least. (3v3 would be even better of course).


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Postby moRtem » Sun May 02, 2010 10:37 am

Such a mod would surely be a good idea, but i neither have the time, nor the will to start with modding.

As devs you should however try aswell to keep the game balanced.


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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Sun May 02, 2010 3:22 pm

Our time is as valuable as the next persons. Too bad that you can't organize the mod, but maybe someone else will. The invitation is for anyone who can do it.
Oh, and it's obvious to see that everyone has their own perception of balance.
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Sun May 02, 2010 3:29 pm

I played in a clan for Enemy Territory for several years, so I think I understand a good deal about it. You think nobody complained about campers in that game? Perhaps this is where my irritation with such topics stems.
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Postby Pardner » Sun May 02, 2010 4:02 pm

I merged a bunch of crap together so this thread may not read right.

If you want to argue about camping and how useless the devs are, you have come to the right place.

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Postby Mart Duggan » Sun May 02, 2010 7:15 pm

As a new player not only to SG but to MMO games, I am still somewhat neutral on camping. I quickly learned in SG that wandering around in the street can be a good way to get shot, often from more than one direction. So as a matter of survival, sometimes I look for a perch to pick off rivals. This is especially handy if I am eating a bowl of popcorn simultaneously.

I am trying to increase my skill in direct firefights, but that will take time. So far I have avoided much play in BR because that requires teamwork, most players exceed my skill level and when I played it seemed to annoy some because I didn't even know where to go. (In DM it is okay to be lost, you still might run up behind someone by accident).

I don't know if camping is bad for the game, although if everyone camps I can see where it would get a little slow. Usually that doesn't happen; in my case eventually I run out of popcorn, run out into the street, wave my arms and shout "try and hit me you assholes"! :D
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Postby Joe Kari » Sun May 02, 2010 11:37 pm

moRtem wrote:Such a mod would surely be a good idea, but i neither have the time, nor the will to start with modding.

Really ? From where I sit, it looks like you have plenty of time...
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Postby moRtem » Mon May 03, 2010 5:30 pm

Joe Kari wrote:Really ? From where I sit, it looks like you have plenty of time...


It is sad that most of you (devs) aren't able to lead a normal discussion.

--

To try to answer your question still: It takes me ~5 mins daily to browse and reply in your forum. So this shouldn't be an indication for having "plenty of time".



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Postby mLy! » Mon May 03, 2010 6:40 pm

1) imo camping on defence is part of the game, camping on the robbers team close to spawn is not how the game should be played. This is why I oppose to this durango modification.

2) We all don't seem to have much time, so what a shame we are wasting it discussing the best map, when nobody was even making complaints about it.
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Tue May 04, 2010 1:51 am

moRtem wrote:It is sad that most of you (devs) aren't able to lead a normal discussion.

It's time for you & I to continue this discussion via private messages, or not at all.

@mLy! : Pardner only has an idea he wishes to share with everyone. He has stated more than once that it's only an experiment & by no means permanent, unless forum response is very favorable.

@Pardner: Thanks for splitting/merging/renaming this topic. I can take a hint even if others can't. :wink:
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Postby Pardner » Tue May 04, 2010 2:13 am

ReD NeCKersoN wrote:@mLy! : Pardner only has an idea he wishes to share with everyone. He has stated more than once that it's only an experiment & by no means permanent, unless forum response is very favorable.


Most of the time I am fixing little bugs that are reported in this thread. Sometimes I notice little things that could be altered, but if they affect gameplay I post them here before I make them permanent.
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Postby mLy! » Tue May 04, 2010 3:45 pm

Pardner wrote: Sometimes I notice little things that could be altered, but if they affect gameplay I post them here before I make them permanent.


Its not because they could be altered that they should be altered. But (and i didn't notice this before) its nice to know you are making effort to improve maps. Only in this case it's imo not an improvement. Not even worth testing it imo.
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