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Postby moRtem » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:00 pm

Sucalakafufu wrote:There are many things you can do to rob in Durango.



With bigger teams: Place a camper on the camper's-paradise-balcony. Let him head down to the open area which leads to the house, from where the robbers are able to get to the second bank.
Place another camper near the fontain, and another - in case someone gets through - on the roof of the bank. A fourth player might camp behind the stairs (in the house, you need to pass to get to the second bank) focusing on the balcony/corridor and - if necessary - assisting the camper mentioned first through the window.

---

In case of 2v2: One camper on the balcony, another near the fontain.
:: Or with even less action: one on the roof of the bank, another behind the boxes at defender's spawn.


---

I bet, you will hardly ever succeed to rob then, assumed your opponents are somewhat of aim-skilled (and play with sound).


---


About the modification of durango: The spawn-place of the robber-place shouldn't be a place to camp. In fact, it even often gets camped right now, since it offers a couple of unfair camp-spots. I don't know if this modification would provide additional -unfair- camp-spots, but i guess some test-games would show.

However: i would do a thumb-up for dowoshek's suggestion, since both teams profit by that path (depending on the current positions of the players in the map), and i already found it weird before to have a short way from A to B, but not being able to move from B to A without a detour.


/quit
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Postby dowoshek » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:30 pm

Joe Kari wrote:
Joe Kari wrote:No need to reply.
Joe, if you can answer only this way, please don't do it at all - at least in topics created by me and not before reading at least:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic
Thank you
:roll:
moRtem wrote:
So, considering pt 2 of my last post, you prefer their camping to giving them 'escape' option...


i didn't say so - my opinion is:
do something against campers, and this feature isn't needed
but.. if this feature is added, there is still nothing done against the core of the problem and additionally there is the risk of opening new ways to exploit

Yes, I think I get your point, but please notice than the 'core' problem as you write is probably not going to be solved. It'd probably demand complex rewriting of engine and much, much of time... So finally you could have choice of half-solutions like my suggestion (or maybe somebody will propose sth additional/alternative) or no solution at all...
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Postby moRtem » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:51 pm

dowoshek wrote:Yes, I think I get your point, but please notice than the 'core' problem as you write is probably not going to be solved. It'd probably demand complex rewriting of engine and much, much of time... So finally you could have choice of half-solutions like my suggestion (or maybe somebody will propose sth additional/alternative) or no solution at all...


I aswell see what you are trying to say. But i somehow got the feeling that your suggestion isn't easier to implement than another solution for the real problem.

The core problem can surely be solved by a lot of different ways. But before the devs don't realise that there is an issue, it's senseless to post possible solutions.

And i still got the feeling that Devs are just not active enough ingame to actually notice that there's a need for action. (and please don't misunderstand me - this is not and never had been an insult)


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Postby Pardner » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:35 pm

moRtem wrote:The core problem can surely be solved by a lot of different ways. But before the devs don't realise that there is an issue, it's senseless to post possible solutions.


Hmmm.... we don't see an issue? So BR is broke because of camping? I thought Juelunix running BR was the only server good people played on?

Most of the time we don't address issues because A) No clear solution is present, B) Nobody can agree on a single solution, C) We don't like any of the solutions presented, D) We don't bother to fix issues because said issues are only issues in the eyes of the beholder, and E) Peoples sly remarks about how useless we devs are only makes us want to do less (no point in pleasing people who cannot be pleased).

Believe it or not, all suggestions are duly noted and considered. We haven't closed this thread, or any of the other threads.

The "Escape" button may not get implemented for a number of reasons. There is already a round time limit. If you cannot wait 3 minutes to play again, then try playing TDM. Joe Kari presented a solution that was implemented in 1.1. If a robber really wants to hide and keep his weapons, then he can, but the defending team will receive a point.

I don't know how things work on Juelunix, but I have seen times where a robber came back 5x1. The defenders got nervous waiting for the robber to pop out of his camp site. As result, they shot each other, gave their positions away, etc etc. That is part of the game.
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Postby Sucalakafufu » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:15 am

moRtem wrote:
Sucalakafufu wrote:There are many things you can do to rob in Durango.



With bigger teams: Place a camper on the camper's-paradise-balcony. Let him head down to the open area which leads to the house, from where the robbers are able to get to the second bank.
Place another camper near the fontain, and another - in case someone gets through - on the roof of the bank. A fourth player might camp behind the stairs (in the house, you need to pass to get to the second bank) focusing on the balcony/corridor and - if necessary - assisting the camper mentioned first through the window.

---

In case of 2v2: One camper on the balcony, another near the fontain.
:: Or with even less action: one on the roof of the bank, another behind the boxes at defender's spawn.


---

I bet, you will hardly ever succeed to rob then, assumed your opponents are somewhat of aim-skilled (and play with sound).


---


About the modification of durango: The spawn-place of the robber-place shouldn't be a place to camp. In fact, it even often gets camped right now, since it offers a couple of unfair camp-spots. I don't know if this modification would provide additional -unfair- camp-spots, but i guess some test-games would show.

However: i would do a thumb-up for dowoshek's suggestion, since both teams profit by that path (depending on the current positions of the players in the map), and i already found it weird before to have a short way from A to B, but not being able to move from B to A without a detour.


/quit


I didn't mean there weren't also good ways to defend in Durango. I think either way it all depends how good both teams are. If both teams were theoretically perfectly equal in skill and knowledge of the game, then it should be a hard fought battle till the end.

The teams you described are good defenders for sure. The teams that are robbing would need to be just as good to rob. If they are, or if they have tricks that might make the defenders do something that they shouldn't, I see them being able to rob the bank. It may be tough, but not impossible. Tough is good with equal skill sets. This seems to define a balanced map.
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:26 am

moRtem wrote:i don't quite see the purpose of this feature, besides giving lamers another opportunity to exploit (escaping in situations where they already lost, ...)

Similar to the exscessive use of binding a key to /kill in Wolfenstein:Enemy Territory. About to lose the fight? /kill & rob your opponent of satisfaction! I'm all too familiar with this frustrating tactic.
The only difference being that you don't respawn in br SG untill the next round. Still, I doubt anyone would really use such a feature as proposed here. Seriously. Nobody wants to throw in the towel in a video game... ever. The object is to win, not to give up, unless an exploit is in play. If an entire team of "good" players can't dislodge a camper or two, then I question their resolve... or willingness to use the same tactics in a touche'.

What I say next is not directed at anyone in particular, but to everyone.
As has been stated many times before in this forum, occasional camping is an inevitable part of every fps game. The only (code) solution is to autokick someone who doesn't move far enough within a predetermined area, within a predetermined time limit... which introduces a whole new list of worms in the long run. That particular idea has been proposed already & is not even worth considering.
Camping is an individual players decision/strategy/advantage for surviving a given situation & will never go away no matter what. If someone encounters a camper... deal with it, cry about it, or don't play.

Thank you to all for taking the time to suggest & discuss changes. I encourage you to keep doing so. We read every post, even if we don't always reply. It's always good to contemplate different perspectives.

PS. Implying that dev members don't understand the game they've donated countless hours of their lives for never lends strength to an arguement.
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Postby Twig » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:32 am

I just skimmed over the posts so what i'm gonna say could have been said already. Yes, camping can be a problem (camping in the extreme sense, not playing smart sense) and mostly it is certain players that keep doing it. The main problem with these campers is that time is lost while the game itself goes nowhere which leads to frustration from other players. I think the system in place on the sg.wars server works pretty well. In case of timeout, 1 point goes to the defending team. It's simple enough and makes up for the time lost. This doesn't eliminate the fact that some players might camp but it adds pressure from their own team to not do so.
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Postby Joe Kari » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:37 am

I think the system in place on the sg.wars server works pretty well. In case of timeout, 1 point goes to the defending team. It's simple enough and makes up for the time lost. This doesn't eliminate the fact that some players might camp but it adds pressure from their own team to not do so.

That's already in SG 1.1, most probably SG WARS is running SG 1.1 (can't check, I'm at work).
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Postby Twig » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:51 am

Sorry i remembered wrong. Those were just the rules that were used for clan wars. Don't think the game itself gave or showed the point. My bad. But anyway having that in 1.1 should help.
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Postby Juaro Juarez » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:39 pm

Hmm changed my opinion :D

Suca i guess your right with that, and in the end(even if that sounds weird now for some guys) It should be harder to rob the bank then defending, cause it gets more realistic then :D
Cause you don't get 10:0's often on Durango.. so that means some guys got to rob the bank OR kill all defenders :D
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Postby moRtem » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:42 pm

Sucalakafufu wrote:If both teams were theoretically perfectly equal in skill and knowledge of the game, then it should be a hard fought battle till the end.


I disagree with this. Smokin' Guns - the way it is at the moment - favours camp, and even more, it favours camp in a way that opponents are chanceless. E.g. think of Santacruz -- the way from attackers spawn to the bank via the direct corridor on the very right can't be passed as soon as one opponent is camping on the boxes (and therefor only having his head visible). - another example: Mexico. for defenders it is impossible to move from Church to the big open Area which leads to money escape-point as soon as just one opponent covers this area from the balcony. -- another example: br_alamo_tiny - impossible to kill someone on the roof of defender's spawnplace -- example: cobber - impossible to kill someone on the roofs -- i could continue this with every single map


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Postby moRtem » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:44 pm

ReD NeCKersoN wrote:The only (code) solution is to autokick someone who doesn't move far enough within a predetermined area, within a predetermined time limit... which introduces a whole new list of worms in the long run.


I can't quite see the "list of worms" here. A feature like that is implemented in other games too and works out very well.

However, you wouldn't even have to go that far to do something against campers. If someone who doesn't leave a "predetermined area" in a given time, then it would already help if this player would be forced to do some noise (e.g. by adding a fly's "bzzzzzzzzzz" until he moves). And only, if this also doesn't make him move, you could "/kill" him (or let him lose health, like e.g. drowning does) after another 10 (or whatever) seconds.

I am confident that even very liberal settings (of such an anticamp) would help to get rid of the hard campers, while it wouldn't prevent anyone else from playing tactical.


That particular idea has been proposed already & is not even worth considering.


I disagree, because i am missing your arguments.

Camping is an individual players decision/strategy/advantage for surviving a given situation


As long as camping is used moderately and tactical, i agree. But sitting at one place for 3 minutes is no tactic.

PS. Implying that dev members don't understand the game they've donated countless hours of their lives for never lends strength to an arguement.


It's beyond question that the devs know the game they created. But they got a different perspective on the game. And additionally everyone got his favourite gamemode, while certain problems only exist in certain gamemodes. Plus most devs don't play competetive games.


That's already in SG 1.1, most probably SG WARS is running SG 1.1 (can't check, I'm at work)


sgwars is 1.0 still.


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Postby Black Jack Ketchum » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:42 pm

What is this im gone from the game 4 months and people is starting to sling shit at eatch other, and question that the developers have the best for the game in there minds! what a shame!!!!!! :|

Regarding the problem i think this should be turned to a Server Side problem not a dev problem, lets take the moRtems last idea, the flysound thing for example. I think this could be a quite good solution (of course i have no idea how much work it demands) If that option was added it would be up to the server admins to decide the rules, how long you can be in one spot etz etz... then the users is deciding them selfs on what server/rules they are going to use, server/rules that nobody like is going to die. One way to correct this now should be to shorten the round time, thus forcing a faster play.

Last to all Developers You are doing a GREAT (unpayed) job, Keep it up!
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Postby Juaro Juarez » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:18 pm

Shortening the round time would maybe just mean to watch campers not that long anymore... :D
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:50 am

moRtem wrote:I can't quite see the "list of worms" here.

Probably because it doesn't further the "anti-camp" crusade to see it. Where you guys (& you know who you are) see something that needs fixing, we only see 3 or 4 people insisting something be done about what appears to be a trivial matter to most.
We have to weigh the benefits vs the amount of work, unexpected bugs, more unexpected bugs, more feature requests related to the implementation, player complaints with the new system, possible exploits & of course many new forum arguements. The alternative is to somehow perfect each & every br level to totally eliminate all possible camping spots, which is impossible when you think about it, unless you'd like featureless maps to play in.
Doesn't seem worth the trouble just because a couple of professional players on jeux can't kill a camper. Ever hear of dynamite? :P

There's really a very simple solution if you want an anti-camp feature, different weapon values, different hitzones, etc, etc, etc.
Create a "competition mod" of some sort for SG. (OSP ring a bell?) Then only players wanting to play the mod will be affected by all of the changes. We could even create a new section in the forum for it & make one of you guys the moderator. (It stands to reason that we'd be watching this section closely. The moderator must be a good representative on our forum.) All you'd need is a dedicated coder or two willing to delve into the open source. (Maybe the creator of the 1st SG mod might be interested?) Then if anyone complains about the mod, it's dev members, or demands features that you perceive as questionable, well... you get the idea. :wink:
It's a win-win situation. You get what you want by way of a mod & the SG devs are no longer distracted by competition related debates. Such a mod, if handled professionally, would naturally receive frequent visits on our news page.

As a side note, a new website is already under construction (for the future) which can easily provide a wealth of competition related features. Tons & tons of clan tools, built in ladder match system, etc. I've seen the system & it's incredible.
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