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Postby Allied » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:43 pm

I actually didn't mean the latest SDK, I meant the earlier ones which used true Directsound - such as the Feb 05 one.

I understand why you'd want to use OpenAL as opposed to XACT, that's not really my question. I don't understand why the current implementation of Directsound isn't giving me surround audio.

Regarding OpenAL, in my Windows 2000 install if I set the device in the io client to Generic Hardware surround does work. There are some anomalies but it works fine enough for me. This is using the standard OpenAL DLL, not the Realtek implementation. In my Vista install there is only Generic Software - which does not have any surround.
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Postby sparcdr » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:27 pm

The actual OpenAL backport should help this, as what you're probably using is based on 1.0 branch, which is an evolution of 1.32 SDK with enhancements from ioq3 and internal work over the last 5+ years. This is one of the advantages of ioquake3, it has a full surround sound implementation, but there's still no promise of course. The last SDK to have Direct3D8 and DirectSound libraries/headers is August 2007. You could try and build against it, but I'd bet there's something more to the problem than just the fact we don't use DSound anymore... Try installing the redist for OpenAL on Vista, because it's not included by default, and only the generic sound provider works without surround.
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Postby /dev/random » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:53 pm

I know that this should go into a new thread, but I encouter a strange behavior of the game.
I use OpenAL, but when a player reloads his weapon, the reload sound "stays" where the player started reloading, even if the player moves away from that place.
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Postby Allied » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:49 pm

sparcdr wrote:The actual OpenAL backport should help this, as what you're probably using is based on 1.0 branch, which is an evolution of 1.32 SDK with enhancements from ioq3 and internal work over the last 5+ years. This is one of the advantages of ioquake3, it has a full surround sound implementation, but there's still no promise of course. The last SDK to have Direct3D8 and DirectSound libraries/headers is August 2007. You could try and build against it, but I'd bet there's something more to the problem than just the fact we don't use DSound anymore... Try installing the redist for OpenAL on Vista, because it's not included by default, and only the generic sound provider works without surround.


Ok, I'll be looking forward to the full release. I have installed the OpenAL redist, and nothing changed. I was looking things up and found this on the OpenAL website regarding Vista and OpenAL:
The Generic Hardware device will no longer be available, as it requires the use of hardware DirectSound 3D Buffers. Instead, this device will gracefully, and automatically, fallback to using the Generic Software device, which will continue to work as before.

From:
http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL%20Wiki/OpenAL%C2%AE%20and%20Windows%20Vista%E2%84%A2.aspx

I may try a build with the older SDK and if I do I'll report my findings for the interested.

Edit:
I did try and build a client with the older SDK, and nothing changed. There is still no surround via Directsound in Vista, I haven't yet tested it in 2000. I know that Microsoft did drop support for Directsound3D in Vista so it will be a worthwhile checkup I believe.
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Postby sparcdr » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:36 pm

They may revisit this in coming years, but the only option is to redo everything by hand in DirectSound and not have it go through OpenAL...but it's not just a matter of another recompile either, they've changed things.

In the latest DXSDK there's a technical preview for something called Direct2D, so it leads me to think if they're willing to revisit GDI and try and provide something to replace it again, maybe they will have something for Windows 7 (They promise more compatibility on par with XP including older VB/VC++/MFC libraries stripped from Vista due to time) to provide hardware programmable sound again, and this would be something ioquake3 may due to the current problems revisit despite their concerns for cross platform compatibility, since it's an important feature that many take for granted unknowingly to them always using XAUDIO2 or a custom job with DirectSound.

Just simply bridging obviously doesn't work (OpenAL -> Generic Provider) so this is not an easy rewrite, also I am the only official Windows guy left, and I don't have experience with programming sound API, so it's left to future discussion and individuals contributing to our SVN and contacting me and other official members regarding these contributions which hopefully can be pulled from upstream instead but we're open to someone doing it from scratch as long as it's maintainable.

The only work related to this I've even looked at is the new OpenAL functions, but most of these issues had to be fixed by Tequila since on Linux this is the defacto sound API used in games and as a result he's much more competant with it. Since this game is cross-platform, up until now the fact of the matter is that we are trying to maintain a single codebase and due to team size can't manage too much more due to time and financial reasons can't just hire contractors to fix the issues surrounding AI, Sound, Networking which everyone is aware of. This is essentially why Tequila has backported ioq3, as it's an improved version of the Tech 3 engine, but it's hardly a panacea and won't fix anything specific that we've added if it collides with the normal routines.

Thanks for keeping a good attitude, as most would complain and leave angry regarding something we don't have control over (At least not within attainable means in the near future).
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Postby Allied » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:25 pm

sparcdr wrote:In the latest DXSDK there's a technical preview for something called Direct2D, so it leads me to think if they're willing to revisit GDI and try and provide something to replace it again, maybe they will have something for Windows 7 (They promise more compatibility on par with XP including older VB/VC++/MFC libraries stripped from Vista due to time) to provide hardware programmable sound again


I hope so, I would try it on 7 but the laptop I have 7 installed on doesn't have a sound card capable of surround. It only has two ports and those are fixed to headphone and microphone. The dropping of the default hardware Directsound support and such like is definitely more significant than OpenGL since graphics drivers are almost a must already for 3D gaming, so it would make more sense that they would put it back.

sparcdr wrote:The only work related to this I've even looked at is the new OpenAL functions, but most of these issues had to be fixed by Tequila since on Linux this is the defacto sound API used in games and as a result he's much more competant with it. Since this game is cross-platform, up until now the fact of the matter is that we are trying to maintain a single codebase and due to team size can't manage too much more due to time and financial reasons can't just hire contractors to fix the issues surrounding AI, Sound, Networking which everyone is aware of. This is essentially why Tequila has backported ioq3, as it's an improved version of the Tech 3 engine, but it's hardly a panacea and won't fix anything specific that we've added if it collides with the normal routines.


Yes, it definitely makes sense to keep a common codebase if at all possible - and in my opinion an issue like this doesn't warrant a large change. I would guess that for most surround would work perfectly. XP naturally would have no problems with hardware OpenAL and it's still the most common gaming platform. If I really want to get surround in Vista, as things currently stand I would just get a Creative X-fi sound card. This would add both hardware OpenAL and Directsound3d via ALchemy. Meantime I'll just reboot into 2000 when I want surround :).

sparcdr wrote:Thanks for keeping a good attitude, as most would complain and leave angry regarding something we don't have control over (At least not within attainable means in the near future).


Thank you for your time! This hasn't been a very profitable discussion and I highly appreciate your help. I completely understand that this isn't your problem. You've made a wonderful game here, keep up the good work.
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Postby sparcdr » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:58 pm

Okay... I'll revisit the issue once ioq3 backport is done. Tequila says it's 50%, but I have to migrate the build files for Visual Studio back since he doesn't handle the Windows platform, but it's best to wait on that.
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Postby Waco Kid » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:57 pm

My take on this is that if it doesn't work for everyone it should be considered a cheat. I was playing BR the other day, I was dead and following one of my teammates, and when he heard footsteps you could tell he knew where they were coming from, he was crouching/hiding and pointing and aiming unerringly at corners before the enemy got there.

To me cheating is having an advantage the other guy doesn't, and this is definitely that.
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Postby moRtem » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:42 pm

Waco Kid wrote:My take on this is that if it doesn't work for everyone it should be considered a cheat. I was playing BR the other day, I was dead and following one of my teammates, and when he heard footsteps you could tell he knew where they were coming from, he was crouching/hiding and pointing and aiming unerringly at corners before the enemy got there.

To me cheating is having an advantage the other guy doesn't, and this is definitely that.


with a bit of experience you'll be able to do the same, even with 'only stereo'

(i am just playing with stereo myself, and it's easy to locate the enemy - it just needs some time until you are used to q3-soundengine)


/quit
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Postby Waco Kid » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:20 am

I can't tell at all with the stock sound and I've tried, and it doesn't change the point that even if some can tell with standard stereo adding surround sound with better directional locating is similar in some ways to a wallhack, it lets you know they are coming and from where.
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:09 am

LOL, come on now Waco! So if I have 4 speakers & my friend only has 2 that makes me a cheater? It's not my fault he won't upgrade. Sorry, but your arguement makes no sense. :P
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Postby Waco Kid » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:37 am

If it isn't the same for everyone it's a cheat, I mean if one guy has a wall hack and the other doesn't, is it the wallhacks guys fault the other guy won't upgrade?
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:27 am

Waco Kid wrote:If it isn't the same for everyone it's a cheat, I mean if one guy has a wall hack and the other doesn't, is it the wallhacks guys fault the other guy won't upgrade?

Your definiton of cheating is too broad. Wallhacks don't ship with the game & are not an "upgrade." It's a 3rd party hack which IS CHEATING. In other words, not available to all with the official installation.
I don't tweak my config to the point that the game looks ugly & super bright. But the opportunity to do that is present for all. In fact, I know players who do it because winning is everything to them. I suppose they are cheating because I refuse to do the same?

Thanks for your input, but I'd rather not derail this thread into a "what is cheating & what isn't" discussion. If it ships with the game, it's open to anyone who wants to take advantage of it. :wink:
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Postby Sucalakafufu » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:40 am

ReD NeCKersoN wrote:
Waco Kid wrote:If it isn't the same for everyone it's a cheat, I mean if one guy has a wall hack and the other doesn't, is it the wallhacks guys fault the other guy won't upgrade?

Your definiton of cheating is too broad. Wallhacks don't ship with the game & are not an "upgrade." It's a 3rd party hack which IS CHEATING. In other words, not available to all with the official installation.
I don't tweak my config to the point that the game looks ugly & super bright. But the opportunity to do that is present for all. In fact, I know players who do it because winning is everything to them. I suppose they are cheating because I refuse to do the same?

Thanks for your input, but I'd rather not derail this thread into a "what is cheating & what isn't" discussion. If it ships with the game, it's open to anyone who wants to take advantage of it. :wink:


i agree with Red :)
also with moRtem because many times i can tell exactly where a guy is with just stereo. :D hehe it just takes practice and if u dont like being found then crouch or walk :P

anyway about surround sound. Red what system ru using to do surround? and is it in the 1.1 build or the 1.0 build? i would like to get my friend who has a surround headset to try it :)
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Postby Waco Kid » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:55 pm

Some wallhacks do ship with the game, depending on video card and settings. I can see items through walls with certain settings, and could sniper rifle people through walls when they grab an item for instnce, although I don't.

Cheap kills are cheap kills, if it's not your skill but rather your equipment and settings what does that say about you?
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