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Can't start game - white or grey screen - Windows Xp old sys

Postby Red_sunset » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:16 am

:roll: I've tried both the zip and the exe version download. On both of my computers running Windows XP SP3, I run the Smokinguns.exe and I get the blue box (terminal screen) and everything seems to load okay, then I get a larger white or grey screen and nothing else. I check the process and there are two for Smokin' Guns not responding.

    Computer one is a Athlon 64 3200+ SSE, SSE2, SSE3, 3dnow with NVIDIA 6600GT AGP video card

    Computer Two is an amd athlon xp 2200 1800Mhz, with ATI HD3650 AGP video card

Both of them run Quake 3 and Western Quake 2.2 fine. We've had many smokin' network games before! Hubby and I love spotting which movies are referenced in each map and the authentic feel of the game. With some tweaking, I even got it to work in widescreen for Computer One.

From some info on the forums here, I've tried changing the q3config.cfg to enable it to run in a window (seta r_fullscreen "0"), still the same.

I notice that r_lastValidRenderer in the q3config.cfg isn't updating to show my video card.
What are the system specifications for this game (or for the quake open source used?) I wonder is it much different from western quake 2.2 and whether I should give up and just go back to western quake?
Sorry to ask so many questions! Help would be much appreciated! :)
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Postby moRtem » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:55 pm

wild guess: did you try updating the graphic-card's drivers?


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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:56 pm

I agree. I've had that problem with graphics drivers.

HOWEVER, if WQ3 runs fine then SG should also. Maybe try deleting the q3config.cfg so that the next time you start the game a new one will be generated.

For better support of higher resolutions try our latest binaries.
http://www.smokin-guns.org/downloads/bi ... 220/win32/

And welcome to the forum! :)
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Postby Pardner » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:44 pm

I have an older system that I use to test SG on. I also get the gray/white screen when launching SG. I found that if I wait long enough the game menu will appear. The game runs, but its not pretty.

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Postby sparcdr » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:36 am

The white screen affects Vista+ users more than XP, even on NVIDIA systems. It's a delay from preloading and initializing OpenGL. Most integrated graphics adapters can barely play pool let alone something 3d, albeit in design a decade old historically. The minimum requirements are listed on our Wikipedia article, though some may get away with less.

The fact of the matter is due to driver quality and functionality gaps in many cards, namely older integrated Intel chipsets, only a subset could be supported, and of those only two specifically I could say would in most cases at least in capability that would be good enough, being Intel GMA 950 and Intel X3100, which are common in 2007+ laptops.

Everything else must be ATI 8500 or NVIDIA GeForce 4 (3 series is bare minimal) due to driver support issues more or less bound to OpenGL and vendor support. The best supported is clearly GeForce 6 and newer class GPUs.
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Postby Red_sunset » Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:26 am

Thanks very much for the welcome, fast replies, help and ideas!

Both of the computers more than meet the minimum specs as stated on
Wikipedia. processors run around 1.8 Ghz,both have lots of RAM (1Gb
and 2Gb), and both video cards have 128Mb and 512 mb RAM onboard.
They're not onboard video cards. Hard to keep up with so many new
and old hardware setups, I know. Both have the latest video
and audio drivers (they run all Battlefield games ok!) Well,
except when playing on the internet, more about that below.

I researched alot and tried a few things and after many tries and
restarts eventually got it to work! To help out other people I'll
explain and include links and information for basic users:
    DELETED CONFIG FILES
    Deleted the q3config.cfg but it didn't generate a new one. Still the
    same, console completed, then white screan then an empty window. BTW
    when it stops responding it crashes like a motorbike, big time.
    Ctrl-Alt-Delete and you can't stop the process you have to restart the
    whole system.
    NEW BINARIES
    Downloaded the new binaries but maybe I didn't install them
    correctly. Ended up losing all three .cfg files and just got an empty
    transparent box - no console even! BTW ?do you need to download all
    the dll files contained in dll and vm folders and sdl.dll? Which
    folder do you put those in? Need to know for when I try them again for
    widescreen
    NON-SSE CPUS
    I read around many other forums including OpenArena and ioquake3
    (which I think Smokin' Gun's ported on?) and found other people with
    the same problem unsolved mainly in Vista. Some people put it down to
    non-SSE CPUs which mine aren't.
    You need SSE CPUs to run this game, most CPUS built after 2000 have SSE
    OPENAL DRIVERS
    On the OpenArena troubleshooting wiki it said, if it won't start at
    all with no error message (for windows) install OpenAl libraries
    (universal 3d audio sound drivers). I searched my computer and have
    OpenAL32.dll and wrap_oal.dll installed. (you can download OpenAl at
    http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/ ... Items.aspx)
    Not sure if you need OpenAl for the Smokin' Guns 1.0 but you need it
    for the updated binaries (1.1 engine) as Tequila says here
    viewtopic.php?t=1623&highlight=openal)
    VISUAL C++
    2008 SP1 RUNTIME
    Searched the Smokin' Guns forums for help with the binaries and
    found another gem by Sparcdr "Some users report needing "Visual C++
    2008 SP1 Runtime" which is attainable from Microsoft DLCz" So I
    downloaded and installed that too from http://www.microsoft.com/downloadsdetai ... laylang=en
    Again, will need it for the binaries later. Didn't need it on computer two to run SG ver 1.0.
    SECURITY SOFTWARE CLASH
    After giving up and a sleep, I though try it with the antivirus/firewall off
    (offline of course). I'm using Optus Internet Security Suite 2009,
    which is a rebadge of F-Secure Internet Security 2009.
    Had lots of problems with it lately as it clashes with punkbuster for some games
    (Battlefield Vietnam, Battlefield 1942), causing strange faults
    (general protection fault and Punkbuster update/file errors) after
    handshaking with a server. It doesn't seem to allow some programs to
    access the windows kernel even if you put them in quarantine and allow
    access for the firewall. So I turned it off all the six F-secure processes by
    going to start / run / type in "services.msc" without quotes.
    What do you know?

    :D Smokin' Guns worked. It works alot smoother than Western Quake. It was worth it!
    But, if you're going to play online you'll need to use another firewall, maybe the windows one

I hope this info will help someone else who may have the same or similar problems. I'll report the problem to F-secure too and update on here any information from that.

SYSTEM SPECIFICATIONS & DRIVERS LIST
Just found a great detailed system requirements and drivers list at 3/4 of the way down by sparcdr at viewtopic.php?t=1683&highlight=visual++2008
(maybe that should be a sticky! I didn't think of looking in the coding section). Maybe there should be information on the binaries and how to install them, maybe a text file you download with them? If I can help with your forums or manuals, let me know. The forum and website is great, love how you can search the forums without being logged in, it helped alot.

Look forward to advice on how to install the binaries and trying them out. I hope someone else finds this useful and can get this great game working too. I can smell the gunsmoke calling me.
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Postby sparcdr » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:56 am

You only need vm dlls if you're a developer, and they will not work for multi-player so just disregard their existence. You need to have a copy of SDL.dll in the Smokin' Guns folder though. Having an updated OpenAL runtime is also necessary as you have stated, though current NVIDIA drivers are hardly necessary unless one recently has in effect for whatever reason broke compatibility for 1.4 (API) lineage programs such as ours.

Modifying the q3config won't have any serious implications with 1.1 as long as it has been ran once since, as is with other q3 modifications and derivatives, a deviant copy is made in %AppData%\Quake3\SmokinGuns anyway. 1.0 needs the files there, and you will encounter a UI bug with the buy menu with 1.1 on 1.0 servers until we release the update and everyone is synchronized. The workaround is to simply open the buy menu to get what you need, hit esc, and when it doesn't close, to simply hit the buy ('b') button again to close the menu.
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Postby Red_sunset » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:13 am

GOT IT TO WORK WITH F-SECURE STILL ON
- It could be a problem with all firewalls?

Please forget everything I said about F-Secure not working with Smokin' Guns above. I didn't test all the settings before writing that. :oops: Really should have done that earlier before going off half cocked. I haven't written to F-Secure and shouldn't have to now. I'm guessing that any firewall might cause the same problem ?

    * First I tried adding the smokin' guns folder it to the exclusion list only, so that it is no longer virus scanned. But I still got the same crash on loading the game. So that didn't help.
    * Then allowed Smokin' Guns executable inbound (client) access to the internet / network, but still got the same crash.
    * Then also allowed server (outbound) access to internet / network as well and the game loaded fine, it worked! Haven't tried joining a server yet but will do.
    * I also tested it offline and got the same result on my second computer (also running OISS (F-Secure Internet Security Suite 2009)).

Perhaps this quake 3 engine checks the network ports as it loads? (It's bizarre. Most games can play offline and without network access just can't browse or join servers. I can't think of a game that can't start and crashes because it's not allowed to access network! Quake 3 doesn't - just tried it.)

To allow the Smokin' Guns program to access the internet and get it to work with F-Secure:

    1.) Double click on system try icon or open the program from start menu.
    2.) Click on "Internet Shield" button.
    3.) Next to green "Applications Allowed/Denied", on the right click "Change".
    4.) You will be at the Applications tab, click on Add at the bottom.
    5.) Browse your computer and find your smokinguns.exe file in your Smokin' Guns game installation folder (default is C:\Program Files\Smokin'Guns). Click open.
    6.) Under Outbound (client) connection click checkbox next to Allow, AND also click on Allow under the inbound (server) connection (or it won't work, on my machines anyway). click ok.
    7.) Now the program will be allowed to access servers on the internet through your firewall. Try it and have fun!


(BTW if you update the executable with a new one, for example, from a patch or updated binary, you will have to go and choose the updated .exe again and allow access again. Otherwise the firewall will detect that the .exe has changed and won't allow it to access the network. The 2008 version used to give an error message that the file has changed but the new one doesn't even warn you.)

Now we'll be able to play online hopefully, with good security protection. Yippee! 8)
Hope that will help and wonder if any1 has had the same problem with other firewalls? Or does everyone just automatically install things and allow access through their firewalls as a habit. I forgot this time :lol:
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Postby sparcdr » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:49 am

Smokin' Guns uses Inno so we could probably do that through Microsoft's 3rd party firewall service, but no we don't have such a thing done automatically. Outbound means the ability to download rather than the more sane assumption that it means putting out as in, Inbound. Inbound is a term used to describe outward facing services such as a web server. The firewall can occupy the required port which is used for internal operation causing the program to fault.

It's not a matter of it working offline or not, it needs the port and it is being checked by the firewall and/or anti virus and being denied by default its right to use it. It has the right because such was the assumption by software in design as of the late 1990's. The rule is, anything above 1024 (Merely a UNIX limitation by lineage) is free to use regardless of user, while anything above typically requires administrative powers, even on Windows this is forced artificially.

Most modern games use a hybrid multiplayer configuration, where by design multiplayer is already integral to the design of the engine, and applying such would be trivial at most as opposed to the prior way as it was with DOS lineage games where multiplayer if it ever was added required major resources to retrofit or rather bolt-on to the game. That's just the general design of Id's late 1990's and current products and is followed internally by Blizzard, with games such as Tribes from defunct Dynamix (V12 engine, aka Torque being an actual product available to consumers now by former members) also setting the standard.

The thing is, on Windows you have ports (TCP/UDP) running on sockets, IPC shares (NetBIOS) running in another layer, but on UNIX you can do all of that through D-BUS and BSD NetSock as well, but also have the ability to daisy chain services together through UNIX pipes, a feature Windows doesn't have. The point is, for games to effectively communicate with internal services which MIGHT be made external at another point in time, and for cross compatibilities sake, such an operation must be performed using TCP/UDP rather than some abstract, potentially untested and completely closed-room implementation which requires one fixed point (in time) operating system. Services such as those named would not always be available. UDP is useless for creating persistent services which require a control channel which is why TCP is used for actually providing an interface (Via the port).

All modern operating systems have support for TCP/IP. As a matter of fact you can obviously go back to 1962 and cite IBM's modulation standard with their analog phones which applied to their early modems as well, although that would predate Ethernet (IEEE 802.3) and in effect TCP/IP as well which were published in 1982. Either would be within reasoning with a ton of effort capable of supporting today's internet, and that includes super sets, extensions, layers, shims, tunneling, etc. which are mere reinterpretations (read: implementations) of the original anyway.

With resources permitting, running something by scope of Smokin' Guns is possible to do if you have a nuclear reactor and two buildings with 1,982 IBM System/370 mainframes laying around.

The system requirements would be:

1344 times more space than was typical with the machine (Cited: 256 KiB) or 336 MiB.

CPU capacity of:
1:450 Ratio (Intel PII MMX : IBM 370M71MP)

450 systems to handle CPU side
541 systems to handle CPU side
991 systems total

CPU -
Baseline:
1 MIPS (1MHz IBM 370 158-3 SP)
1 MIPS (8MHz Motorola M68K)

Comparison:
1.7 MIPS (1.7MHz IBM 360 M67MP)
760 MIPS (400MHz Pentium II MMX)

GPU -
Baseline:
1 MIPS (1MHz IBM 380 158-3 SP)
541 MIPS (200MHz NVIDIA GeForce 2)

The lead-based screens could be a problem when it comes time to handle 13 FPS (Lowest viewable without making you barf your lunch) without drawing garbage to the screen. Sound would be done via wooden spoons, clicks, and real guns firing blanks because synthesizers would put more load on our already constrained reactor.

Total cost is estimated at 1.1 million per system, or 2.18 billion USD to finish the project.

Sorry for long post, but the anti virus is producing bad behavior and cannot make up for what has been and what will be. I'm glad it helped though.
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Postby Red_sunset » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:57 am

Thanks heaps for the information. Very interesting and your knowledge is impressive. I'm glad we don't need a nuclear reactor and there's a fix. Isn't windows funny how some DOS conventions still apply. When you say a program under 1024 do you mean under one megabyte in size?

Reminds me of my first computers, commodore 64 and Amiga 500 (wow 500kb of RAM - amazing!). Haven't computers gone a long way.

I'm sorry I did mix up the information on inbound and outbound services and mixed the information up in my first dot points as well. :oops: I've had it backwards and you've cleared it up for me, thanks! I always thought inbound (server) would allow you to run a server, and that outbound (client) would allow you to be a client! I normally allow both in and out connections on games (as I run servers for network games) and run a firewall/antivirus while playing on the internet.

You need to allow inbound (server) connection so that you can join servers (and the program will work). If you're going to run a server you also need to allow outbound (client) connection.

Hope I got that right this time!? :P

You've cleared it up for me. Thanks for that! :lol:
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Postby /dev/random » Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:54 pm

"Below 1024" means, a program that wants to use a port <1024 as a server.

I think there's a typo in sparcdr's post, the second "above" should be "below" :D
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:37 pm

Glad you got it working Red_sunset. Btw, I just use XP's native firewall & never had any issues with SG.
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Postby sparcdr » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:57 pm

Yes that's correct on my typo, as a lot of data was typed and to audit the grammar was an issue.

1 MiB as a scientific notation = 1024 KiB while talking about a hard disk (Solid state) but such was not the case in the DAT storage days where everything was measured in bytes and everything was sequentially stored, alleviating any need for padding to deal with the file system overhead or any algorithmic considerations which must be done now due to efficiency concerns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiB is more accurate to what was said, rather than the typical assumption that it is actually used on both software and hardware, cylinders are more reliable as a measurement during the initial stages of solid state hard disks until we reached several gigabytes, where a more divisible number was needed. Hard disks are actually comprised of using 1000 as an increment unlike software representation and monikers used by the sales arm of such devices where 1024 would be used based on the MiB as opposed to the simple MB which is not standardized by an official body.

The bit about 1024 ports is about TCP/IP and is not referring to measurement of capacity.

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Postby moRtem » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:00 pm

just for the record:

1.0 ain't based on ioq3

1.1 will be based on ioq3


i got a router (with firewall) and didn't have any problems so far



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Postby sparcdr » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:26 am

moRtem: 1.1 (engine form) is available if you didn't know and there are a few maps floating around (not from us) which may in the future be added, if you're bored or something. The 'current' binaries are already very close to what we expect to release, whenever that is, and the only bugs that are notable will be cured when the content is synchronized again. The buy menu esc bug is the only notable one, and it shouldn't impede gameplay, and yes this works multiplayer..

http://www.smokin-guns.org/downloads/binaries/current/

About the firewall topic, software firewalls cover applications "phoning home" while embedded hardware routers (consumer) do not filter outbound traffic in any major way, though they through obscurity with the help of network address translation block incoming. Our game does not use uPNP, so routers cannot detect the presence of our game running in server mode, so it cannot be flagged by hardware or be automagically forwarded. There is no risk to using our software behind a router and/or firewall (either would be sufficient in preventing packets from escaping as a public facing service)
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