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Would you like Smokin'Guns to come with a CTF-like gametype in a future release ?

Poll ended at Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:26 am

Yes, please, please, please
10
38%
Yes, it could be fun
12
46%
No, don't loose your time
2
8%
I really don't know
2
8%
 
Total votes : 26

Postby Joe Kari » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:25 pm

Hey! I'm just giving my opinion ;)
So IMO, CTF does not fit smokin'guns gameplay. CTF are for fast and jumpy game like quake3 or urban terror. And I have never seen CTF in Sergio Leone films ;)
Particularly, returning a flag (or whatever the flag looks like) by just touching it doesn't make sense in a semi-realistic game.

Finally, CTF needs tons of new map. Current maps are not designed for that. Usually, a CTF map is symetric. We don't have any. In CTF, most of battle take place at the middle of the map, we should ensure that the middle is designed for that, etc...
Lot of work, for something you can already play in other game.


You ever play Jailbreak Q3? I would love to see a Jailbreak SG!

I don't know this mod, what were the rules ?
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Postby mLy! » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:06 pm

Joe Kari wrote:
Finally, CTF needs tons of new map. Current maps are not designed for that. Usually, a CTF map is symetric. We don't have any. In CTF, most of battle take place at the middle of the map, we should ensure that the middle is designed for that, etc...
Lot of work, for something you can already play in other game.


They could work on the current BR maps with only one side attacking and one defending, see my previous post.

But I agree, a 'real' CTF style gametype would nee new maps.
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Postby Pardner » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:17 pm

Joe Kari wrote:I don't know this mod, what were the rules ?

Its like CTF in a sense that the maps are symmetric, but there isn't a flag. When you frag an enemy, they get sent to your jail. The enemy team can free their captured teammates by venturing into the enemy base. The game is over when an entire team is captured.

Joe Kari wrote:Finally, CTF needs tons of new map. Current maps are not designed for that. Usually, a CTF map is symetric. We don't have any. In CTF, most of battle take place at the middle of the map, we should ensure that the middle is designed for that, etc...
Lot of work, for something you can already play in other game.

I would like to see a new gametype where we have to create all new maps. It would really breath some new live into the game.

mLy! wrote:BR maps with DM spawnpoints

That is doable right now without any code changes. The problem is that some of the maps are not well suited for DM. This is always a possibility and we could test this.
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Postby Joe Kari » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:05 pm

Its like CTF in a sense that the maps are symmetric, but there isn't a flag. When you frag an enemy, they get sent to your jail. The enemy team can free their captured teammates by venturing into the enemy base. The game is over when an entire team is captured.

Wow, I like the idea ;)
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Postby Pardner » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:11 pm

here is a link to a Jailbreak POW download. (I preferred JB:POW over regular JB)
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/quake ... 26818.html

Unfortunately, their site was Planet hosted and they got cleaned along with most the other good Q3 stuff. No servers, no support, no source, and no development :(
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Postby moRtem » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:22 pm

mLy! wrote:just some quick thinking, how about

BR maps with DM spawnpoints
Robbers have to rob 5 times
Continues spawn times (i.e. every 30 seconds)

Very little coding work i guess


sounds interesting -- the details would need to be tested of course.

Probably with an option, where you can't spawn right beside the one who just killed you.


So IMO, CTF does not fit smokin'guns gameplay. CTF are for fast and jumpy game like quake3 or urban terror. And I have never seen CTF in Sergio Leone films Wink
Particularly, returning a flag (or whatever the flag looks like) by just touching it doesn't make sense in a semi-realistic game.

Finally, CTF needs tons of new map. Current maps are not designed for that. Usually, a CTF map is symetric. We don't have any. In CTF, most of battle take place at the middle of the map, we should ensure that the middle is designed for that, etc...
Lot of work, for something you can already play in other game.


The first suggestion was a modified CTF-mode, which sounded/sounds pretty oke for me, and also achieves your demand of a semi-realistic game (as long as "red team" needs to carry back the "red bags" to their base, instead of just running over them to get them returned)


About having symmetric maps i am not sure. In general i agree, but probably some non-symmetric maps would also turn out to give a good balance between the two teams.

On the other hand: Would it be that hard / take that much time to take a current BR-map (where the source is accessable with the licence to adjust it), mirror it (or a part of it), and put together the mirrored and non-mirrored map? Of course maps would immediately get twice as big, but at least they are symmetric then. I am not a mapper, so i am really interested in the answer.

Its like CTF in a sense that the maps are symmetric, but there isn't a flag. When you frag an enemy, they get sent to your jail. The enemy team can free their captured teammates by venturing into the enemy base. The game is over when an entire team is captured.


Sounds interesting aswell.

I would like to see a new gametype where we have to create all new maps. It would really breath some new live into the game.


In case there are interested mappers, this would be really great indeed.


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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:40 pm

moRtem wrote:Would it be that hard / take that much time to take a current BR-map, mirror it (or a part of it), and put together the mirrored and non-mirrored map?

That could probably work for some of the simpler maps, like Cobber maybe? But for others it's probably impossible. For example, I wouldn't waste my time to try it on CoyoteBluff.

Pardner wrote:I would like to see a new gametype where we have to create all new maps. It would really breathe some new life into the game.

That'd be fine if enough mappers have the time & dedication to do it. Otherwise, it'd take months.

I really like the sound of this "Jail Break" mode. Fits the western theme like a glove.
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Postby Sucalakafufu » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:23 am

Jailbreak sounds awesome!

and for the Steal The Bags mode. I think it would be fun at least to test it.

so I think both are good ideas that can be molded to fit SG mostly realistically
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Postby dowoshek » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:36 am

Jailbreak sounds very interesting - it'd be probably fun to play it in SG. One question: what would those jailed guys do? Playing chess? Sounds like it's another version of waiting for campers to rob the bank in BR. This mode would be great, but I doubt it could build and attract many players to SG, just like BR didn't and just like probably a good CTF-like action could easily do. And claiming that there's no need of CTF in SG because it is in every other FPS sounds ridiculous. At last, CTF is not so popular without reason, right? :) So Jailbreak'd be still just a fancy creation for a dozen of players.

Nobody expect CTF for tomorrow. This topic is placed in 1.1 section but it must be obvious that it's simply a request for the game not for the release. No need to hurry. Also, we could start with very few (but good!) maps, just to test it.

Let me repeat it one more time as I think this is very important and should be carefully considered by dev-team if they want to create game for a bigger community not only for a dozen of people:
If you'd like to have many cowboys playing with you your favorite Duel or Jailbreak you firstly need to invest in mode that can attract many new players with a "typical" :roll: preferences for FPS types of match. After they are trapped into the SG, many of them will probably find much fun playing those "original" :roll: modes from time to time - and it'd be enough to fill few Duel/Jailbreak servers with a big profit for "originality"-lovers :) Also, if "the investment" will succeed there will be not only more interest by players but also by mappers, graphic artists, coders and different game-content creators in general, who could probably help creating the "original&visionary" :roll: part of the game. IT JUST WON'T WORK THE OTHER WAY!
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Postby Joe Kari » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:36 pm

dowoshek wrote:This mode would be great, but I doubt it could build and attract many players to SG, just like BR didn't and just like probably a good CTF-like action could easily do. And claiming that there's no need of CTF in SG because it is in every other FPS sounds ridiculous.

No it is not ridiculous. In any freegame, the players have a tendencies to request for their favorites commercial game's feature. The dev team can either do it, and that's why most of free game are just a tasteless copy of commercial game, or either resist to the player's willing, and this can lead to great game that can eventually be as great as any expensive game (example: Battle for Wesnoth).

However, BR is the essence of SG. Most of people love it. Saying: "BR didn't attract player" is not reality.

And the popularity of a game type is not a good reason. Of course we want players, but not at all cost.

Just to be clear: I don't blame you for having idea. But don't blame me for giving my opinion ;)

Let me repeat it one more time as I think this is very important and should be carefully considered by dev-team if they want to create game for a bigger community not only for a dozen of people:
If you'd like to have many cowboys playing with you your favorite Duel or Jailbreak you firstly need to invest in mode that can attract many new players with a "typical" Rolling Eyes preferences for FPS types of match. After they are trapped into the SG, many of them will probably find much fun playing those "original" Rolling Eyes modes from time to time - and it'd be enough to fill few Duel/Jailbreak servers with a big profit for "originality"-lovers Smile Also, if "the investment" will succeed there will be not only more interest by players but also by mappers, graphic artists, coders and different game-content creators in general, who could probably help creating the "original&visionary" Rolling Eyes part of the game. IT JUST WON'T WORK THE OTHER WAY!

hem...
Are you a manager in real life ? :D
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Postby Pardner » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:38 pm

dowoshek wrote:Jailbreak sounds very interesting - it'd be probably fun to play it in SG. One question: what would those jailed guys do? Playing chess?

I was explaining this to Red on TS yesterday. In JB:POW the captured players sometimes could have a way to escape from jail. For instance, there would be a hole in the wall that was too tall for a single player to reach, but one could reach it with a 2-3 person player ladder. On some JB:POW maps, both teams shared the same jail..... so you would spawn in a jail mayhem.

EDIT: I wouldn't mind seeing CTF in SG either. I agree with both Joe and dowoshek. Jailbreak was my second favorite Q3 mod and it was the most popular game in the 10~15 person LAN parties we had at school.
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Postby dowoshek » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:01 pm

Joe Kari wrote:However, BR is the essence of SG. Most of people love it. Saying: "BR didn't attract player" is not reality.

That's why I didn't say that :roll: It attracted about 30 people around the world so far (in words: thirty) :wink:
Joe Kari wrote:Just to be clear: I don't blame you for having idea. But don't blame me for giving my opinion ;)

Joe, I don't "blame" you, I just show you why your way of thinking about community-created game is wrong. Discussing means showing arguments and pointing where other arguments are wrong, right? Sorry for this school off topic, but I had to write it because...
Joe Kari wrote:
Let me repeat it one more time as I think this is very important and should be carefully considered by dev-team if they want to create game for a bigger community not only for a dozen of people:
If you'd like to have many cowboys playing with you your favorite Duel or Jailbreak you firstly need to invest in mode that can attract many new players with a "typical" Rolling Eyes preferences for FPS types of match. After they are trapped into the SG, many of them will probably find much fun playing those "original" Rolling Eyes modes from time to time - and it'd be enough to fill few Duel/Jailbreak servers with a big profit for "originality"-lovers Smile Also, if "the investment" will succeed there will be not only more interest by players but also by mappers, graphic artists, coders and different game-content creators in general, who could probably help creating the "original&visionary" Rolling Eyes part of the game. IT JUST WON'T WORK THE OTHER WAY!

hem...
Are you a manager in real life ? :D

...because above I tried to clearly explain what is wrong with it... but please don't answer like that... it's not productive argument (it's not argument at all).

Pardner wrote:I was explaining this to Red on TS yesterday. In JB:POW the captured players sometimes could have a way to escape from jail. For instance, there would be a hole in the wall that was too tall for a single player to reach, but one could reach it with a 2-3 person player ladder. On some JB:POW maps, both teams shared the same jail..... so you would spawn in a jail mayhem.

Shared jail option sounds better because 2 guys building the "ladder" can still play chess in the meantime ;) Nice idea, although it's still running around and collecting frags (or maybe there'd be some way to add robberies between.. hmm).
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Postby Joe Kari » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:31 pm

@ Dowoshek:
Sometime this is not about logic. Sometime there isn't "wrong" argument, just a different point of view.
I was trying to explain you that SG is not a commercial game. By saying "are you a manager in real life", I was joking about the dramatical way you were concerned about popularity of SG, just like a manager would be at work ;)

Of course we are going off-topic, and I have already explained why I don't like the idea, so I leave it to you ;)
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Postby Pardner » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:38 pm

We could always make a test map that could be used as both a JB map or a CTF map. CTF would be the easiest to implement code wise (depending on what state the CTF code is in). Run CTF and see how it goes and if the coders want to create the JB mode and test that. Unfortunately, CTF will be more popular than the JB mode so testing to see which is better would be pointless.

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Postby iap » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:32 pm

I liked the idea said before in this thread of "collect as much money as you can" in witch there are some money bags laying around, and some coins or dollars scattered, and each team should collect as much money as he can. Killing one person would drop an amount of money equal to his share in the group (killing a man in a group of 2 will drop half of the money) so the person killed it can collect that money.

The game will end when one of the groups has collected enough money.

To make it interesting, buying stuff would be in the expense of the collected money (And maybe more expensive then usual) so the dilemma would be if you want to buy new expensive weapon or save the money.

This could even be team based or individual.

What do you think?



About attracting new players. Well as a new player, I fell in love with this game and droped all other FPS I knew (nexuis, cube2). But thats me, the things I like the most in this game, are exactly the things other would not... 8)
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