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Players that are really hard to hit/cause lag?

Postby Waco Kid » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:24 am

There are a few players, consistently high scoring ones, sometimes suspiciously high scoring ones that seem much harder to hit than normal. I'm not talking about dodging, even when they are spawned and standing still it seems I hit them about 50% of what I am able to hit other people. I also notice lag seems to increase a bit when these players are on.

Why is this?
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Postby Waco Kid » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:24 am

No one else has noticed this? It's like effects caused by lag, where you only hit the guy by aiming off to the side of him but not directly at him, but his ping is real good and he has the same "spacial displacement" even if my ping and his are good. No one else has noticed this effect with some of the real "good" players?
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:05 am

Maybe I don't play enough lately to notice anything like this. I generally only notice it when the ping difference is quite high.
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Postby moRtem » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:16 am

Waco Kid wrote:No one else has noticed this effect with some of the real "good" players?


I personally don't, but some of my teammates do.

Out of experience with other q3-engine games this skipping is most likely caused by negative cl_timenudge settings.

cl_timenudge is a variable which allows you to (when set to negative numbers) virtually lower your ping, by letting your client predict of what will happen in the next milliseconds. Since movement in q3-engine games is quiet dynamic and fast, this doesn't work correctly however, and the errorous prediction gets corrected with every recieved frame. Which basically causes the mentioned skipping.

Since SmokinGuns is delagged, cl_timenudge doesn't have any effect however (beside making yourself appear laggy to others), so this command should be locked to 0 or only positive values as soon as possible.


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Postby Waco Kid » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:03 am

This isn't a high ping difference, and the player isn't "skippy" like a high ping player, they are just not where they appear to be like a high ping player while appearing to have all the advantages of low ping.
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Postby mLy! » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:23 pm

I agree that there is a huge problem with 'skippy' players in this game, as they are really hard to hit.
As for the waco kids' problem, does your lagometer look ok? What FPS do you have? Also, be aware that the hitboxes in this game are really 'off' so the problem you are experiencing may just be this.


moRtem wrote:Since SmokinGuns is delagged, cl_timenudge doesn't have any effect however (beside making yourself appear laggy to others)
/quit

Are you sure about this, I remember many discussion about this and that this is just a 'mythe', that timenudge does not change anything to how the server 'sees' you.
And on SG, I've played against "famous-timenudger-you know who" and didn't notice anything at all
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Postby /dev/random » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:27 pm

I didn't look at the code, but why should cl_timenudge aka client_timenudge be able to change serverside behavior? Be aware that you can still play with rate and cl_maxpackets, they might cause the before mentioned effect.
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Postby moRtem » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:08 am

/dev/random wrote:I didn't look at the code, but why should cl_timenudge aka client_timenudge be able to change serverside behavior? Be aware that you can still play with rate and cl_maxpackets, they might cause the before mentioned effect.


I didn't look at the code either, but you are basically right: client timenudge should not change serverside behaviour (in theory).

The fun part is: As far as i remember, also unlagged-author commented the timenudge-makes-you-skip-myth and said it's nonsense (and i guess he was analysing code to come to this conclusion). However most players - especially more experienced ones - notice when opponents use negative timenudge-settings, the higher g_speed is, the higher the effect. I played a lot of Quake3 before (NG-mod) and there timenudge-abuse became a real issue, so at the latest update, timenudge-setting got disabled.

However: Basically timenudge makes no sense in an unlagged game. Additionally having the conjecture that it makes players appear skippy should be enough reason to disable the setting in SG aswell. (As far as i know, it even got removed in QuakeLive)


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Postby sparcdr » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:41 am

Good information to consider. Maybe I would have believed that unlag caused a bit of unpredictability, even for advantage, but it's surprising that QUAKE Live has removed it, given high latency players do exist, and I'm pretty sure they don't have a lot of worldwide servers. Same could be said for us, especially with the Asia, Africa and Russia regions (Where we've not tapped) so on one hand, it helps, but the other counter is it could be causing more issue than what it solves. I don't like the skippy lads myself, but the dedicated player base warrants some compassion still. Like to hear more about developer opinions since I'm probably not as qualified to reference Quake limitations which may not apply today.
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Postby moRtem » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:18 am

sparcdr wrote:given high latency players do exist, and I'm pretty sure they don't have a lot of worldwide servers. Same could be said for us, especially with the Asia, Africa and Russia regions (Where we've not tapped) so on one hand, it helps, but the other counter is it could be causing more issue than what it solves.


Unlagged takes care of this part. Unlagged simulates a zero-ping feeling for everyone.

So timenudge is not needed (since virtually lowering your ping doesn't make sense, when you are playing with zero-ping[-feeling] already)


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Postby mLy! » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:13 pm

moRtem wrote:Unlagged takes care of this part. Unlagged simulates a zero-ping feeling for everyone.


What? Are you telling me you feel no diference playing on USA server than on EU server?
I don't notice anything about this 'unlagged' feature, I clealy notice the 100 ping on USA servers and have to adjust my aim and gameplay.

And about timenudge, even IF it makes you feel skippy as mentioned, then still SG is too slow paced (g_speed and general) to notice it.
And I use timenudge when playing on an american server and it does seem to help a bit, same goes for some USA players I know playing on EU server.

An other thing is maxpackets, for the next release (1.1) we should really increase the default value in the config.
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Postby /dev/random » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:59 pm

Wrong! Noone should modify the default values, as they are meant to fit for everyone. There might still be players that are on dialup.
If you are experienced and interested, you can change any setting you like. That's not a reason to adjust defaults.
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Postby mLy! » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:38 pm

/dev/random wrote:Wrong! Noone should modify the default values, as they are meant to fit for everyone. There might still be players that are on dialup.


Weird statement, maxpackets 60 would suit 99% of the players better.
So imo you have a weird interpretation for 'fit everyone'

/dev/random wrote:If you are experienced and interested, you can change any setting you like. That's not a reason to adjust defaults.


The reason to adjust this would be that its better for every one, and most players don't know how/why to adjust this.
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Postby sparcdr » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:17 pm

Go back to the ID way (With new ideas). Player selects their connection which is also measured by the authorization server to ensure they're not to lie about their ping, or have their ping obscured by running through a proxy. Unlagged servers are primarily for dialup and ISDN players and maybe 3rd world DSL such as in India.
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Postby /dev/random » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:38 pm

By everyone I mean everyone, not the majority of players. You can still play with the current default of cl_maxpackets, can't you?
In vQ3 I've seen many players which do not change any of the settings and still play fine. What's your advantage of others having a higher cl_maxpackets setting? If you wan't to force certain setting onto players because of "fairness", use something like PunkBuster.
If you're so inclined you could also set com_maxfps to 125 default etc. It is the player's decision which settings he uses.

I might even choose a low rate and maxpackets setting as not to stress a shared internet connection, there is no way defaults or "the authorization server" could consider this. What's the problem with proxies (or an "obscured ping")? Some people are forced to use one (at work, or because their ISP uses that technique etc.).
Unlagged takes care about ping, not bandwith. With 56k I had a ping of 70ms, while DSL gave me 50ms, Fastpath 20ms (while differences are likely even smaller, since the PCs used got faster too).

An approach to this could be a menu popping up at the first game start (or first time you choose multiplayer mode), which asks for your settings (Modem, DSL, LAN).

Unlagged works, try playing with a ping of >=100ms (which is usually unplayable when it comes to precision or a fast game) without unlagged, you'll need to aim in advance a lot and with the errors in (your) prediction, your shot will most likely miss. There is of course still a difference when pings are really low, but Unlagged makes aiming a lot easier.

As a last sidenote, cl_maxpackets would need to be adjusted in the engine's code, not the config (the latter would work too, but that's the ugly method ).
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