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[cortlens]

woot dese forums are ugly.

[raziel]

yup but i do like thar fecers its a litol bit eazer! but thars no head shot smile i reley liked that one may be it will work? :headshot: nopw

[Deimos]

yeah, well don't worry about that, i'll add all the smilies and will change the colors again..
it's only provisory

[gralon]

hello all,

i'm happy to see that westernq3 is really alive

and i'm waiting for a lot of fun from beta 2.

See you.

[harold*]

yaaah a q3 powered western very nice,i've been hoping somebody would do a western.it's looking great very authentic good job.

Some of the match type's sound cool,are there gonna be some indian vs cowboy stuff.Instead of hostage rescue you could have indians or cowboys infiltrate a camp and assassinate a npc or perhaps even kidnap one.

i'll be bookmarking this site

[General Tso]

We've discussed the usual Cowboys vs Indians scenarios but nothing has really been decided yet. Right now we're focusing on getting Beta 2.0 out the door and after that we'll sit back and see what's in the cards for later releases.

Keep an eye out here and on the news page though, when we do decide this'll be where you hear about it first!

[raziel]

well is it me or has nothing new hapend in the lat 5 days ahhhhhhhhhhh

[cortlens]

Cowboys versus Indians wouldn't be very PC, in fact, it would be highly offensive, accept to people whom think stealing land and killing off the inhabitants is ok. Also people who are not educated about what happened.

[General Tso]

well is it me or has nothing new hapend in the lat 5 days ahhhhhhhhhhh

You're correct. Nothing has happened in the last 5 days.

Chill. There actually is some news but as I mentioned in one of the other forum areas I've been away with the military and haven't had time to post. I'll be gone again starting this Thursday.

The Mod team is mostly working on coding and behind the scenes stuff right now though.

Keep in mind, this mod, like most others, is done for free, by folks who dedicate their spare time to it and sometimes real life intrudes. Work continues but this past week has been rather busy.

[General Tso]

Cowboys versus Indians wouldn't be very PC, in fact, it would be highly offensive, accept to people whom think stealing land and killing off the inhabitants is ok. Also people who are not educated about what happened.

Cortlens,

The PC angle doesn't really do much for me. First off, it's history, like it or not and I don't see anything wrong with portraying at as such.

Second off, there were atrocities committed by both sides throughout the history of the West so it's not like the Indians were entirely passive, innocents who were simply butchered by the white man. Plus, look at European, African, Asian history etc. You'll find similar examples during any any stretch of expansion by a nation, kingdom or empire. The Indians got a bum deal, no doubt about it, but they essentially lost the war for their territory. It was no worse than what happened to most native populations during colonialism, or any other time period in history where one culture was defeated by another.

I'm not really defending it so much as saying look at it in context. You talk about it like it was a unique event and it was not.

Third, so what if some people find it offensive? Don't like the white man? Then play the Indians and start killing off bluebellies!! :p

Look at all the WW II mods out there now. Are you complaining about those too? The Nazi's were amongst the worst butchers the world has ever had to offer yet there's no hue and cry over their portrayal in games. First off it's a game, second off it's a bit of history. You can't ignore what you don't agree with or pretend it didn't happen.

I'm not speaking for the whole team here and don't know if we'll include Indians or not, but frankly I'm in favor of it. More so after hearing the BS that ot wouldn't be PC. I'd like to see a coupel of good Indian models that'd let players play Commanche braves or something of the sort if the want too.

Either way though, it's an issue that likely won't be dealt with until well after Beta 2.0 is out.

[cortlens]

Truthfully I don't like WWII mods for mutliple reasons. 1. It glorfys war 2. It lessens the loss of the people who died. I don't really like any war mods. I lke fantasy, robbery, outlaws etc. etc.

Sorry for calling it not being PC. Jesus some people have a real hate for that word. Lets call it ethnic cleansing in game form. I would be ok with it, as long it was portrayed in a light that was historicly correct. You can be un PC homophobic, beating your wife burning crosses all you want to, as long as things are portrayed accurately historicly I would be ok. I don't need to prove who was the agresor, who was clearly the more evil, and who never attoned for their crimes.

Tradtionally speaking the Cowboy Vs. Indian movies were wildly inacurate and racist. After a breif inernet search I found some links
http://www.djmcadam.com/ojibwe.html

I like the way the movies are described there.

and here is a timeline for your use for decided how you want to pervert history
http://www.ilt.columbia.edu/k12/naha/1800s.html
to give you some ideas of what actually happened.

I think the only thing that would make sense is millitary versus Indians, of course women and children too, and the object would be to kill as many as possible and burn their houses and take their land.

[General Tso]

Uhhuh. And Indian raiding parties never raided villages, farms and settlements and attacked civilians, burned their homes and farms and killed and kidnapped women and infants either. Both sides were responsible for some pretty nasty attrocities although the Indians obviously came out on the loosing end of things.

Whatever. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not going to argue about it any further here. I don't have the time right now and don't expect anything would change your mind anyway.

My point in relation to the game is twofold:

1) Sure the Inidans got the shaft but they were certainly present in the Old West and are a legit persona to have displayed in game. Indians were scouts and traders amongst other things and part of everyday life on the frontier.

2) The portrayal in game would (potentially) be as described in #1 above. Another player option for use in regular gametypes. Indian scouts and trackers worked with both lawmen and outlaws alike and would add flavor to the game (IMO). You're automatically assuming Indians would take on teh role of a "bad guy" and I don't see that at all. Like any other people they were individuals and worked on both sides of the law. Again, this is keeping in context with the current WQ3 focus on lawmen vs outlaws.

We'll see what happens in regards to the addition or exclusion of Indians in the long run and you can make your decision as to wether you still are interested in the mod at that point or not.

It might make an interesting poll question though to see what the community as a whole wants.


"I lke fantasy, robbery, outlaws etc. etc"

So it's okay to promote killing people for financial gain? No problems with portraying criminals and villians and the deaths of lawmen or others in the course of thier criminal conduct? Now there's hypocrisy for you With those views I honestly don't get how you could enjoy any FPS game, or any game that onvolves any sort of lethal conflict for that matter?



For the record, despite what it seems you're trying to make out, I'm by no means "anti-indian". My wife has Indian blood from both her mom and dad's side of the family and, while Pennsylvania isn't a hotbed of Indian activity, I do know some fullblooded Indians including a good buddy in my reserve unit. Hell, I'm actually in favor of independance for the reservations and was cheering the Canadian Indians on when they attempted to succeed 8 or 10 years back!

WQ3 isn't a game of Cowboys vs Indians and I don't see it becoming one but I really don't get why it would be bad to reflect the fact that Indians were an integral part of the frontier period and did fulfill societal roles even in the context of WQ3's premise of lawmen vs outlaws.


A point you might find amusing:

I write stage designs for Cowboy action shooting for my local club. When we did scenarios based upon the Plains wars my buddy did stages from the cavalry point of view and I wrote ones from the Indian perspective.

[cortlens]

Yes raids sometimes happened, I am not denying this, in fact if there was a mod and the theme was to pillage rape and kill the white devil I think it would be great, however events like this were ew and far between. The time period this mod supposedly takes place would have nothing like that. I am sure you think a few people killed is a good reason to slaughter a couple thousand of the red devil.

As for war, soldiers die meaningless deaths, by the thoasand the march over the hill to be slaughtered becuase of some mistakes made by the rich and politicians.

I think robery is bad ass. Most of the time bandits don't go around killing people (civilians) pointlessly like the army, and lawmen are there to stop it. Killing cops isn't really that bad, and the outlaws are just plain cool. I am sure the dead outlaws if were brought back form the dead would they would enjoy it, maybe not the cops, but who cares.

[General Tso]

Whoops. I added to my reply while you were posting. See above.

"I think robery is bad ass. Most of the time bandits don't go around killing people (civilians) pointlessly like the army, and lawmen are there to stop it. Killing cops isn't really that bad, and the outlaws are just plain cool. I am sure the dead outlaws if were brought back form the dead would they would enjoy it, maybe not the cops, but who cares."

I can't believe you just said all that. Killing cops is good and soldiers just go around pointlessly killing civilains?

Never mind. It's obvious you don't have the slightest clue and I am truly wasting my time discussing this.

[cortlens]

I didn't say it was good, I said it wasn't that bad. And as far as the soldiers go see: History.