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What is about placing media files unders SVN? (Closed)

Postby Lucky Bro » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:39 pm

Good day,

Recently I was downloading the Xreal project just to see what are ReD and Tequila were talking about in their interview.. And this project was about 1,5Gb in source code. But there were everything. After compiling and building it you may get working game. You have to build not only the code (dlls, exes, etc), but maps as well.

So, what do you think about placing SG media files under SVN?
The point is to make them available for modifications. To be able doing patches as well as just to track them.
By media files I mean maps (their sources), configuration files, other stuff as dlls and etc which are required to run game right after you get the source code.
We may discuss here how to store them under SVN. Also we may create some make-file (or/and bath file for Windows OS users) to prepare the game to be built (it is not easy task, but it seems to be possible).

The only troubles I can see are about rights policy. Like not everything what is included in game is under open-source license. But if such troubles are present it will be good to solve them anyway.. The earlier we start the easy it will be in the future to improve game.

We already have to modify configuration files, UI, skins, etc for 1.1 version. Why don't start to do it?

Thanks for attention.
Last edited by Lucky Bro on Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You should know that the lies won't hide your flaws/No sense in hiding all of yours/You gave up on your dreams along the way" (c) "Fake it" by Seether
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:34 am

Tequila has set up just such a system for us. But it's private for now. And admittedly, some of us struggle with how to use it. (ReD is an svn noob.)
Beyond that, what should be available to the puclic & what shouldn't is a big question.
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Postby Lucky Bro » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:17 am

Hummm..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but almost everything already are available for public. Except maps I think. To rebuild (and modify) the maps you need to have a source for maps (I'm not sure that it is so, I'm just using my experience with Q1) - only *.bsp are not enough. Other files could be found in game's directory and in pak files.
You may now for example do some patches which just corrects files. But if'll need to make more modifications - like to remove some files, add new and modify current - you'll have to write a big file with a lot of explanations while with SVN patch you'll just have to create it with "one click".

But if by public you meant that not everything is open-source then we should clear this out.. Because better to replace such old stuff with any new ones.

And if it is was about that not everyone should modify anything to avoid destruction of the game then it is the same as with the current source code - no one except small circle of major devs can't place anything to SVN. Any contributor may take anything and then modify it but contributor can't place it back so easy as contributor took it. That is prerogative of devs. Contributors are free to do with source anything they want (under terms of open-source policy) but they can't ruin current game.

The best thing SVN could do for us is to serve as a major storehouse where all good stuff are placed. We may took a copy from it, check what's already done (even if it is not released) to not redo something what's done, create a patch basing on our modified copy. But the same time such storehouse is opened for modifications for major devs only.

Still that is just an idea and I admit that current way of things could be better and convenient for you and other devs.
"You should know that the lies won't hide your flaws/No sense in hiding all of yours/You gave up on your dreams along the way" (c) "Fake it" by Seether
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Postby Joe Kari » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:22 pm

Note that for instance, only the code is open source (GPL). It is more or less just like in Urban Terror.
Map belong to their respective author.
And most of newer texture are "creative common".

The team don't want to engage the famous "licence war", cause we are a very little team, no need to lose half of us because of licence disagrement ;)
And we want to be attractive for next gen contributor, so IMO it is better this way. That's the contributor himself who decide if its content is open source or not.
We focus on making a free game: everyone can download it, install it and play it for free.


Just for your information, sometime it takes 8 hours to compile a map ;)
If you want to build all the game from sources (code+map), you will probably wait for 3 whole days :D
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Postby Lucky Bro » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:45 am

Joe, maybe you just haven't read what I had written..

The point is to make all media files required to launch the game to be available at SVN.
For a few reasons:
1. It allows quick modifications
2. It makes possible to do patches
3. It allows to track changes
4. And last but not least - you can have latest version without going anywhere except SVN

If you do want to keep map source files for some reason only to map owner - no problem - just place *.bsp file instead (yeah, just the same file which will be in *.pk3 file). That way any new contributor will have to remake whole map if he wants just to modify spawn points, for example. But that is the price you have pay to keep something not open-source.
As well as not everyone keeps *.psd files instead of *.tga or *.jpg in case if one works with Photoshop to make some art. The price will be the same.
And what is worse - since no open-source maps - you won't get new contributors easy. Since they have no examples to learn. That is the way how open-source things work. You learn - you contribute.
As far as my experience says me - you have to give a lot before you get even one contributor (not only sources, but tutorials, manuals and direct help).
And I don't see any problem with writing who is owning the map as author and who had modified it later. As well as with the arts.

"Creative common" is open. But with tracking system like SVN you'll get more results (easy modifying/patching/tracking/getting last). It is an instrument.

Your goal about free game is done when the game became free (pretty long time ago to be honest).

I don't see any reasons "why not" in your replay. And I don't see such points at all (except legacy and personal devs convenience as ReD told - and I understand such things and still wait for more replies (maybe it is better to learn and show SVN to ReD - we can write a very good tutorial)).
The things we may discuss here are how, where and what exactly to place under SVN. But we still discuss what is already done.

Have a good day!
"You should know that the lies won't hide your flaws/No sense in hiding all of yours/You gave up on your dreams along the way" (c) "Fake it" by Seether
P.S. English isn't my native language.
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Postby Joe Kari » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:29 pm

I didn't reply about the convenience of having the whole game in a SVN, because I agree with you on that point ;)

But there are other point where I disagree.

For example that point:
If you do want to keep map source files for some reason only to map owner - no problem - just place *.bsp file instead (yeah, just the same file which will be in *.pk3 file). That way any new contributor will have to remake whole map if he wants just to modify spawn points, for example. But that is the price you have pay to keep something not open-source.

Precisely, most of mapper (including me) just don't want that someone else modify his map. Except if they explicitly say that (or eventually leave the smokinguns's scene).
And is that bad ? IMO, no.
A map should be the vision of one man. His vision of the game, his vision of the gameplay, his vision of fun, his sense of aesthetic, ambiance and originality. Allowing everyone (or a large group of people) to modify all map at will, will lead to have average/standardized maps with no temper.

Instead of re-make the map just for moving spawnpoint, your guy should make a whole new map of his own ;)

And for learning how to map, ReD have made plenty of tutorials. And trust me, that's easier to learn with tiny tutorial map than with a large and complicated one.



But yes, I agree with you with the fact that it will be fine to have a repository with everything.
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Postby Lucky Bro » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:08 pm

Ok! I got you, Joe ;)
I meant tutorial for easy SVN usage for ReD and others.
About maps - I accept any reason why you don't want your maps to be open-sourced for everybody. Mean you don't even need to explain it to me since you are author :) Whatever I'll say it is up to you eventually. We don't need to discuss it here (any other place like IRC or other topic is fine). Let's just say as a statement that currently all maps are shipped without source.

So we may discuss now how we'll place all that stuff under SVN? Or better to wait for some more replies - since currently it is like:
"ayes" - 1 (yes) Joe
"noes" - 1 (no) ReD
I count only devs voices, that is why I don't want to put any poll here.
And I don't want to discuss where to place the media and how to handle it before we decide that we will do it. I think it is obvious.
So, other devs, I think you should say your word here (before ReD will change his mind :)).
Maybe I'm missing something important why such thing can't be done.

Thanks for replies guys, have fun!
"You should know that the lies won't hide your flaws/No sense in hiding all of yours/You gave up on your dreams along the way" (c) "Fake it" by Seether
P.S. English isn't my native language.
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Closed

Postby Lucky Bro » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:39 pm

I did my decision.
Everyone who has to know knows.

Thanks for attention everyone.
Topic is closed.
Have a nice day.
"You should know that the lies won't hide your flaws/No sense in hiding all of yours/You gave up on your dreams along the way" (c) "Fake it" by Seether
P.S. English isn't my native language.
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