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[ReD NeCKersoN]

This will probably get more attention here rather than the Level Editing forum.
I've looked at adding some extra tunnels & other stuff, but I'm sure performance will suffer.... and probably my health.

I'd like to keep my hair, so let's see if we can improve the gameplay with spawn changes first. I'm open to suggestions. Here's two images. One is clean so that folks with image editors can download it, put their ideas on it & upload here for us to see & discuss. The 2nd image shows how things are now, which favors the defenders too much.
[thumb=http://forum.smokin-guns.org/userpix/19_br_cb1_1.jpg][timg]19_br_cb1_1.jpg[/timg][/thumb] [thumb=http://forum.smokin-guns.org/userpix/19_redo_1.jpg][timg]19_redo_1.jpg[/timg][/thumb]

I'm not opposed to moving the escape if we need to. Maybe even the money bags. Let's fix the gameplay on this map!

[dowoshek]

The gameplay now is too predictable and camp-based, because defenders just need to care about two places: the long tunnel up to main bank (it's so long that you are usually dead before reaching "the light" and the entrance to underground bank. Both places defenders can reach before robbers and both places are a great camp-spots too (especially behind the barrel underground). Two suggestions of what could be done:
1. Let robbers to get at least one of the camp-spot before defenders, for example by moving spawn for defenders next to doors of main bank and moving spawn for robbers around water and boxes underground.
2. The better idea is to make the gameplay less predictable by reducing the "power" of camp spots. How about making 1 more tunnel from underground (somewhere near water and boxes) up to the red point:
[thumb=http://forum.smokin-guns.org/userpix/3476_19_br_cb1_1_1.jpg][timg]3476_19_br_cb1_1_1.jpg[/timg][/thumb]
This way nobody could camp "just like that" without watching his back.

[moRtem]

2. The better idea is to make the gameplay less predictable by reducing the "power" of camp spots. How about making 1 more tunnel from underground (somewhere near water and boxes) up to the red point:
[thumb=http://forum.smokin-guns.org/userpix/3476_19_br_cb1_1_1.jpg][timg]3476_19_br_cb1_1_1.jpg[/timg][/thumb]

this would be worth a try imo


/quit

[mLy!]

From the attackers spawn, make some stairs to a balcony. A balcony over the tunnel exit. (the small tunnel from attackers spawn)

Make the balcony in a way that there is no way of going back and also not to much covers.
Add some boxes or so, so that the attackers can jump down from that balcony fast.

And/or make the ground more 'flat' near the defenders spawn so that they have less cover/less position advantage

[Black Jack Ketchum]

I to like dowosheks new tunnel (would make a great sign in the map "Dowoshek tunnel"). i guess it depends on the workload. I dont think you should change it to much, Now it ads a bit variety to the map pool, and the rotation is fairly good i think!?

[Pardner]

The robbers are at disadvantage when they head to the cabin because they are running up hill. They are also at a disadvantage when they go down into the tunnels because the defenders can beat them to the "rock door"

What if you remove the tree:


The defenders would still have the upper hand when defending the cabin, but now in order to get to the tunnel they must
A) jump and receive fall damage or
B) take the time to go over the bridge and down the ladder.

Very easy fix and I am sure you could test it by say... tonight!

[ReD NeCKersoN]

I've looked at adding some extra tunnels & other stuff, but I'm sure fps will suffer.... and probably my health.

@dowoshek: I'm sorry, but I can't put a tunnel there. Fps would increase a lot & it would be more work than I want to do.
@mLy!: Fps would increase with your idea too. But if I could put a hole at the location I show in this image, that might not hurt performance as much. Then a ledge that you could jump onto the tracks. But this still doesn't solve the balance problems imho.
[thumb=http://forum.smokin-guns.org/userpix/19_cb1_1.jpg][timg]19_cb1_1.jpg[/timg][/thumb]
@Pardner: Your idea is the easiest, and probably the best so far imo. This would guarantee that the robbers reach the tunnel $$ first. But, reaching the escape would still be just as difficult.

Thanks for all of the ideas & please keep them coming. Remember, it's FAR easier to move spawnpoints, money & escape point than it is to create new tunnels. I'd rather do what's easiest to fix the gameplay.

[dowoshek]

@dowoshek: I'm sorry, but I can't put a tunnel there. Fps would increase a lot & it would be more work than I want to do.

It doesn't have to be exactly the tunnel i described. There's just a need of additional path in THE place. The solution with ledge leading to tracks is also good:
[thumb=http://forum.smokin-guns.org/userpix/19_cb1_1.jpg][timg]19_cb1_1.jpg[/timg][/thumb]

@Pardner: Your idea is the easiest, and probably the best so far imo. This would guarantee that the robbers reach the tunnel $$ first. But, reaching the escape would still be just as difficult.

But it'd not help the gameplay at all, imho. It'd be like that: few robbers camping at spawn and rest of them running down to "rock"-bank... every round

[moRtem]

my opinion:

mly's idea: would be worth a try

pardner's idea: would make the situation worse, due to losing another path to the money-exit

dohoshek's 2nd idea: worth a try


/quit

[Pardner]

pardner's idea: would make the situation worse, due to losing another path to the money-exit

I understand your point, but others have made a point that robbers cannot even get up to the cabin, thus never get to use the tree. Notably, the second entrance to the escape point becomes *almost* useless.

[Sucalakafufu]

pardner's idea: would make the situation worse, due to losing another path to the money-exit

I understand your point, but others have made a point that robbers cannot even get up to the cabin, thus never get to use the tree. Notably, the second entrance to the escape point becomes *almost* useless.

i agree with pardner and i think that the removal of the tree actually harms the defenders ALOT more than it harms the robbers. so i think its worth a try. also in all my days playing this map i havent once used that tree to escape... only to chase or find a good spot to defend

[DeUgli]

How about a covered bridge? The worst moment for the robbers is being exposed to fire from the cabin. If you could provide more cover, maybe a boulder or two by the water tank also, so that escaping across the upper tracks is feasible, that would even things up.

[dowoshek]

Any progress in the subject, ReD?
Is there a chance for new Coyote Bluff in 1.1?

How about placing two more barrels on the half way of tunnel from robbers' spawn up to the main bank? That would be helpful for robbers (not much but always something).

[moRtem]

i played it a couple of times again

In my opinion the main problem is, that the enemies are able to get control over the upper tunnel too fast.

(no matter how quick you are as robber, the upper way against medi-good players ends deadly in 90% of the cases)


While i think the way for defenders down to the lower money-bag is pretty ok (also for the robbing team).

So what about getting the way to upper tunnel longer, while keeping the distance to lower. I'd think of a relocation from the defenders' spawn-place with new destination: around the little cottage near escape-point.


/quit

[ReD NeCKersoN]

Any progress in the subject, ReD?

A little.

I'd think of a relocation from the defenders' spawn-place with new destination: around the little cottage near escape-point.

Hmmm. I think I like that idea. Moving spawns around is so much easier than trying to alter the map.