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[Pardner]

Unfortunately, this may be a tough discussion (as you can see some tempers have already flared). The pistols in Smokin' Guns really have defined the gameplay for me at least. The pistols have always been what has attracted me to the game, and it seems to be the one thing that people mention when they review our game (Moddb, etc), and the thought of changing that is a little scary...... but thats why we test it!

[SmokeyBacon]

Yes, obviously they are very symbolic of the whole theme of the game so I can see that changes in them would be far-reaching. Perhaps instead modifying some of the damage multipliers for certain body hits and also tweaking damage falloff along with some rifle changes would resolve it? Reviewers may see the attraction of the pistols when playing initially, in DMs or single player, but ask many experienced players who have used pistols like the peacemaker for a while and I'm sure some will say that there is a noticable gameplay issue involving pistols and rifles.

I suppose at the end of they day the trade off is between optimizing gameplay, and optimizing game immersion. So yes, I can see why this area is quite heated and that it would be a hard thing to resolve for you and the team. Good luck to you with the test anyway.

[ChainLightnin']

Not being a hotshot, I use whatever pistols I can get. But I often buy the Winchester rifle first, just for the aesthetics and the sound, and the challenge of hitting with it. It's the Old West!

[moRtem]

As for shotguns, I only have 1 real issue with any of them, and that is decrease the remington 12 gauge's switch and reload times.

therefor it is very powerful compared to the sawed off (in terms of range) -- i like remington the way it is .. shotguns are well-balanced in my humble opinion

altough i got the feeling remington/sawedoff hits are random (due to spread i suppose) -- a fixed pattern for the gunholes would probably remove the random part of the shotgun and makes it possible to train the use of it, rather than hoping for a lucky series of head-/neckshots



/quit

[Sucalakafufu]

therefor it is very powerful compared to the sawed off (in terms of range) -- i like remington the way it is .. shotguns are well-balanced in my humble opinion

altough i got the feeling remington/sawedoff hits are random (due to spread i suppose) -- a fixed pattern for the gunholes would probably remove the random part of the shotgun and makes it possible to train the use of it, rather than hoping for a lucky series of head-/neckshots
/quit

hmm well i think spread is what makes a shotgun a shotgun. and im pretty sure not having a fixed pattern makes a shotgun how a shotgun would really be. so i think shotguns are fine the way they are. (not to mention it is possible to train how to use shotguns as they are now)

also on pistols i think lowering leg multipliers is a good idea. especially to get rid of two shot peacemaker kills. and i also agree that making peacemakers weaker doesnt solve any real problems except that it will make the S&W look juicier. (it already looks juicy to me in alot of situations).

one more thing: the remington pistol in my honest opinion should kill a man with one headshot if the shot is fired almost point blank. (yes a distance headshot with a remington probly shouldnt kill). my friend and i already tested firing a remington as close as one can without shooting through a person and many times the person will not die from one headshot this makes me laugh in too many ways

[ChainLightnin']

The original real Remington 1858, as it was called, was a .44 cal. blackpowder, hence the pre loaded cylinders for speed. (Pale Rider). Depending on how much powder you rammed, 500 to 1000 fps. The top strap made them better for bashing, as the Colt would bend and jam the cylinder. Big stopping power! If the big lead ball didn't kill, the lead poisoning might! Not bad for accuracy either, with that 8" barrel.

[ReD NeCKersoN]

The original real Remington 1858, as it was called, was a .44 cal. blackpowder, hence the pre loaded cylinders for speed.

History in mind, I've always felt that the Remington pistols are too underpowered in this game. It's a given that accuracy at long range shouldn't be good with lead balls, even with an 8" barrel. But a .44 caliber lead ball doesn't need to be accurate in close quarters & is more than deadly enough to kill within 50' or so, imo. (Btw, I sort of know from experience what black powder pistols are capable of with regards to accuracy.) Anything at truely long range is a crap shoot, but I wouldn't want to stare down the barrel at close range. I think the remingtons should be show-stoppers up close, but inaccurate at medium range & beyond. Thicker smoke when firing would be cool too & maybe a beefier sound, to reflect the whole black powder thing.

[ChainLightnin']

Excellent! Sort of that slow burn big pop, and that caustic cloud of black smoke. You almost have to move sideways to see if you hit anything! Great idea!
(500 fps has a trajectory like a cannon ball, so ya, you're right, we shouldn't be able to pick off a guy on the roof clear across town so easy, like we can now.)

[mLy!]

I think you should start a new topic about shotguns....

About pistols:

In stead of decreasing the damage of the peacemaker, we could also remove akimbo mode for peacemakers.
If we also implement the lower spread on alternate fire like I explained earlyer this would still be a nice weapon to play with without beeing obviously better than the rifles at long range.

So this is what the changes would be:

Change leg damage like Torhu suggested.

Remington: no change
Scoffield: no change
peamaker: no akimbo and better alternate fire

Winchester rifle: lower spread + price at 20$
Colt rifle: Lower spread + price around 24/25$?



About the remington pistol discussion:
I guess with the rifle at 20$ we could decrease the range of that pistol.
(But I wouldn't increase the damage, I would rather change the hitboxes values a bit, bit this would be offtopic in this topic)

[Sucalakafufu]

In stead of decreasing the damage of the peacemaker, we could also remove akimbo mode for peacemakers.

hmm well this would make me sad personally it would also drastically change how to play the game... also, anyone who starts playing would be frustrated and annoyed that you can akimbo anything but peacemakers. LOL at least i can see many people feeling that way

Remington: no change

but wouldn't you agree that a Remington at close quarters should be a bit more powerful? just a tiny bit mind you. as in a headshot when im right next to you should kill you in one shot.....

Winchester rifle: lower spread + price at 20$

spread i might agree with. price at $20 im not so sure about... i mean when that rifle does hit it is pretty powerful. as in one or two shot kills. which means alot of people might just start running around with this weapon from the beginning of the round. plus i think thats way too cheap for a rifle...

About the remington pistol discussion:
I guess with the rifle at 20$ we could decrease the range of that pistol.
(But I wouldn't increase the damage, I would rather change the hitboxes values a bit, bit this would be offtopic in this topic)

how would hitboxes change the fact that when you DO hit the head hitbox the person doesnt die? which is the reason i would petition for a SLIGHT damage raise on the remington

[mLy!]

I am sorry, but IMO those comments show that you don't really understand the gameplay of this game and how it should/needs be changed. (no offense intended)
And this way of discussing this seems impossible so I wont post about this anymore.

If you even care about my (and the clanwars community) opinion, you know where to find me.
If you don't, this game will die slow (with no changes) or fast (with the wrong changes)

[dowoshek]

I've just tested beta2 for a while and my opinion changed a bit.

First of all... higher spread is no solution and will probably kill the game
Using pistols is frustrating - it's too much about luck and accident now. You can get 4 hits in a row or 4 misses from the same (not so long) distance! It is sometimes more than annoying (i mean pathetic - an example from my game: one of bots crouching in the middle of the shorter wall of saloon (Alamo map); I was shooting at him standing about the beginning of the saloon's wall (so it is very close as you can imagine). The bot was totally uninterested in me, because he was shooting at the other bot. And he didn't move at all, just crouching. And 4 of my shots (Schofiled or Peacemaker) missed! Hey, I'm not such a bad player... I think

Rifles: lowering spread was a good change - it looks like it will be more useful now.

Now I totally agree with guys claiming that spread values shouldn't be the point. It's a bad choice of path for improving the gameplay. It is not the way to balance gameplay - it's only the way to make it more accidental.

My current opinion:
1. Leave spread unchanged (1.0) or corrected for pistols (SLIGHTLY) and rifles (as it is in beta2 now).
2. Damage should depend on distance. Pistols' damage should lower at least 2x faster than rifles (actually, that's what we should test now in place of spread).
3. ONLY if the above is not enough to balance guns, we should look for another ways like for example lowering spread in fast-mode for pistols or make it more "automatic" (keeping alternate fire pushed would fire permanently until there's no bullets).