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Moderators: Tequila, sparcdr, torhu

Postby Tequila » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:02 pm

torhu wrote:Some people have suggested limiting the damage the pistols do at long ranges more than is currently done. This would be a way of weaking the pistols. I've tried to find an easy way to do this, one way is shown in
this image, made with this web-basedgraphing calculator. The three first functions are for the pistols, the last for the two cheapest rifles.

It's just a cubic function that involves base damage, distance to target, and a 'damage retention constant'. Not sure what to call that last one. Note that 'range' is not used. In addition, damage reduction could be capped at maybe half base damage.

Is it something like this that you had in mind, guys? I'm not saying that I think this is a good idea, I'm just investigating options. ;)


About 'damage retention constant', you can think it of the distance at which damage will decrease of one point.

Everyone should remind something, the damage applied will always be rounded to an integer before it is applied. That's essentialy why I don't think we should use complicated formula and we should only define few well-defined ranges with simple linear approximation.

So here is what I would like to try, where D is the hit distance, and R a damage reduction factor:
1) [0;RANGE] is defined as the range where full damage is applied. So if D<RANGE, DAMAGE=FULL_DAMAGE
2) [RANGE;2*RANGE] is the range where damage is reduced which such a formula: DAMAGE = FULL_DAMAGE - R * (D-RANGE)
3) [2*RANGE;10xRANGE] is the range where damage is reduced smoother to a minimum MIN_DAMAGE. In such range, the formula would become: DAMAGE=FULL_DAMAGE - 2/3 * (FULL_DAMAGE - MIN_DAMAGE) - R /10 * (D-2*RANGE)
4) [10xRANGE;infinity], DAMAGE=MIN_DAMAGE

In that way, we could define the reduction factor like this: R= 2 * (FULL_DAMAGE - MIN_DAMAGE) / ( 3 * RANGE )
So at 2*RANGE, DAMAGE will be reduced by 2/3*(FULL_DAMAGE - MIN_DAMAGE).

Of course, this is only a proposition. But we can start to add a cvar to select a damage reduction model and add the models described in this thread.

My point of view requires also to find a good minimum damage definition. I think we can safely define it as half the full damage, rounded to lower integer.

I updated the chart to compare it to the others. This is the green line in the graph.

Btw, in my opinion, if we reduce damage in that way, we should also reduce the spread for every weapon. So more people won't complain about hazardous shots.

Another point, people complains to players not being killed with their big heavy shot... what do you think if we add a feature to say something like 'You hit this guy, he got X points of damage' ? So people will have a better idea if their shot strength is really big... and this can help also people to choose a weapon with the distance they are trying to shoot someone.

I would also like to enhance the spread calculation using a player accuracy capacity which may be shown on the client part as a gauge. Such a gauge should decrease when player is running or jumping and should than only grown after a minimum delay. It should also decrease for a very short time just after any shot. And we may also have it grown toward 150% or 120% when staying crouched without moving or just standing up without moving.

8)

Edition: Fixed missing "- 2/3 * (FULL_DAMAGE - MIN_DAMAGE)" in 3) formula
Last edited by Tequila on Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moRtem » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:39 pm

i agree with most of the points tequila mentioned.

But two more things:

1) i like the linear formular you provide, but the details would have to be tested (min-damage, the damage-fall-off in distance, the ranges where the fall-off applies, ...). The concept sounds fine though.

2a) i am still against any sort of spread, altough a gauge would at least visualize the decreased accuracy. At the same time i doubt that a gauge would be a good visualisation of spread, since you still don't know what this practically means (let's say, the gauge is showing *a little bit of spread* - what exactly does this mean when shooting at someone in close-range, mid-range, far-range? -- in CS it is visualized within the crosshair afaik, which gives a real idea about what's happening - but again: i am not a fan of random aspects in games)

2b) again spread -- is it really a good idea to award someone who's not moving or slowly moving by giving him extra accuracy? -- The majority wants to play a simulation of wild-west. If we really would want to play a game where movement is rare, we'd simply switch to good old CS.

Don't get me wrong. Moving slowly sometimes, or staying in shelter for the time of reload etc. is and should be totally legal. But players who stay on crouch and/or walk round after round slow down the game a lot, and take away the fun of everyone who got killed and needs to wait until round ends. It's neither exciting to watch such a playstyle, nor it is exciting to play with/against them.

The problem i see here is, that there is NO DRAWBACK at all when someone is playing like that. To be honest, it even gives PLENTY of benefits: you don't make noise, you got less spread, you are usually the first to shoot, and so on.

So basically it makes sense for everyone to simply stay on crouch ALL the time. Please imagine what this would mean for the fun ingame.


To summarize: Not only weapon-balance should be fixed. Balance between the different types of movement needs to be fixed aswell (since crouching/walking is suprior to running in every aspect except speed [which is not important in the gametypes SG provides]).




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Postby Sucalakafufu » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:23 am

@Tequila: your ideas seem good. i would like to test them :)

@moRtem: how is running not important? alot of times running is needed in SG or else you will be killed... or you will not rob the bank.. or your target will get away... or you will be a motionless/slow moving target...

to crouch requires alot more tactics. if you crouch all the time, you need to be thinking alot more...

i dont think crouching/walking is superior to running except in lower spread... but then that makes sense because a running man would shoot alot less accurately then a standing/crouching man... in most cases anyway :)
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Postby dowoshek » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:25 am

Sucalakafufu wrote:to crouch requires alot more tactics. if you crouch all the time, you need to be thinking alot more...

Ohh comon :lol:
:wink:
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Postby Sucalakafufu » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:01 pm

dowoshek wrote:
Sucalakafufu wrote:to crouch requires alot more tactics. if you crouch all the time, you need to be thinking alot more...

Ohh comon :lol:
:wink:


well of course im assuming that u are crouching in order to fight better without dying :P because i havent seen a "camper spot" that there is no way to kill the "camper" if he doesnt move at the right times :)

but if u guys meant crouching as in just crouching in general then: yes it takes no brains at all to just hold the crouch button :P
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Postby moRtem » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:26 pm

Sucalakafufu wrote:@moRtem: how is running not important? alot of times running is needed in SG or else you will be killed...


Once someone is shooting at you, he is aware of you already. Which means, that no matter whether you run or crouch, the opponent exactly knows where you are. Therefor the better choice is to run then, since you are a faster-moving target then.

But the problem is that crouching/sitting/walking opponents can not be heard and therefor are usually the first to shoot. So basically campers get awarded for sitting around and keeping the patience.

or you will not rob the bank..


how comes? -- because you'd been hardly moving the first 3 mins of the round?

or your target will get away...


Again, this happens once an enemy is aware of you. Basically same answer as to the first point you mentioned (read above).

or you will be a motionless/slow moving target...


and once more the same answer

to crouch requires alot more tactics. if you crouch all the time, you need to be thinking alot more...

i dont think crouching/walking is superior to running except in lower spread... but then that makes sense because a running man would shoot alot less accurately then a standing/crouching man... in most cases anyway :)


No offence, but if you're really serious about that, you should probably spend some time ingame before adding your 2 cents here.



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Postby moRtem » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:29 pm

Sucalakafufu wrote:because i havent seen a "camper spot" that there is no way to kill the "camper" if he doesnt move at the right times :)


ever played SantaCruz, cobber, durango, mexico, alamo-tiny ? (i guess in every other map there are such spots aswell..)


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Postby Sucalakafufu » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:16 pm

@moRtem: yes ive played all of those maps.. countless times.. and ive dealt with campers many times... :)

i have also been in many situations where someone is aware of me, like you stated, and i just run strategically away (as in hiding behind stuff or zig zagging while jumping and crouching at certain times) and lose the person who was shooting at me (this being because he was crouching and was much slower)

the reason why you wouldnt (or should i say it would be harder) to rob the bank while just crouching is that good defenders will probably have at least one or two guys guarding near the banks and have a few more defenders run out then creep around looking for the crouching robbers... on those maps you've mentioned, crouching can be used as a tool for both the robbers and defenders pretty evenly (except maybe in cobber which may give the robbers a bit more crouch advantage)

yes campers cannot be heard... but if one is camping, then he isn't moving much at all anyway. which means he wouldn't be heard either way... they are usually the first to shoot, in my opinion, because they are in a good spot to see more of the action without being seen too easily. not so much because they cannot be heard... i have killed many campers by sneaking up (by crouching) and slashing them up! or even by running in (making alot of noise) when i hear them reloading :)

of course this is all based on my opinion but to me crouching isn't too badly off balanced with running.. walking on the other hand seems sort of useless :|
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:42 am

Crouching, walking, camping are all strategy choices & nothing more. Let's keep the thread on topic guys. :wink:
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Postby Sucalakafufu » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:39 am

ReD NeCKersoN wrote:Crouching, walking, camping are all strategy choices & nothing more. Let's keep the thread on topic guys. :wink:


thanks ReD. was tryin ta say that but also explain my logic but your right we got way off topic :|
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Postby Tequila » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:09 pm

Well,

I just fix my previous post as I forgot to put the 2/3 max reduction damation part in the [2*range;10*range] range part... Btw the formula was right in the online comparing document.

Then, I still prepared an update for next beta release so we will be able to test it soon. A new 'g_bulletDamage' cvar will be added for that. Do you think we should be able to vote for the preferred bullet damage system ?

Anyway, I would expect more comment. I still thanks moRtem for his "on topic" comment. I mostly agree with you.
;)
About spread, we still need to keep it for shotguns, so it will always be there. But btw I'm agree to set up a test server where there won't be any spread on pistol and rifle guns, and with the new formula.
To comment your response:
2a) moRtem asked "what exactly does this mean when shooting at someone in close-range, mid-range, far-range?": this should mean you'll have a little uncertainty on what body part you'll hit.
moRtem said "but again: i am not a fan of random aspects in games", lowering spread as I proposed goes in that way, less random aspects... I still don't know if completely remove randomness is good.
2b) About accuracy gauge system, I agree this may be not a good idea, but this still only could be a "disabled by default" option, nothing else. So if people hate it, admins can just live it disabled.

About players style moving slowly, I think this will give you a good reason to just hate them and wanting to give them some lesson... Hating people is some a way a western rule... isn't it ? Thanks to us and Smokin'Guns, we can just play to hate people, not really hate them
;)

About not making noise when crouching/walking, maybe we can add random sound there... like a spur sound... of course, another admin game option disabled by default.

About movement fixing, we should open another thread. Can you initiate it as you seems to have some ideas about it ? Thanks.
Maybe giving an option to admins to disable crouching/walking advantage can be useful. So we can just activate it for BR games for example.
Also maybe people should be able to vote for such feature.
8)
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Postby mLy! » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:50 pm

Since no one has mentioned it: the winchecster shotgun needs more damage.

And about those extra voting options, tequila; I don't think thats a good idea...
Most players wont understand it, it will only split up this (tiny) community.
Or at least make an option to disable those votes. (Not the general novotes cmd that disables all votes)
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Postby Tequila » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:04 pm

mLy! wrote:Since no one has mentioned it: the winchecster shotgun needs more damage.

Well we torhu's new commands you'll be able as dedicated server admin to tune yourself the winchester damage.

mLy! wrote:And about those extra voting options, tequila; I don't think thats a good idea...
Most players wont understand it, it will only split up this (tiny) community.
Or at least make an option to disable those votes. (Not the general novotes cmd that disables all votes)

This is still only a discussion, but you're right about adding cvar to disable such voting feature.We will keep that in mind.
Thanks for the remind
;)
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Postby Rct. Tsoul » Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:56 am

A 45 Long Colt bullet will F**k you up, no mater what the range, its the Drop that limits its effectivness to Kill or cause damage once it hits the ground.
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Postby Holliday DDS » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:41 am

If i understand right, you are proposing that servers be able to configure things like weapon damage/spread, sounds, and certain gameplay features. For me that doesn't sound good. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I play on about 5 different servers. How would I be aware what the settings were on each server? Because if settings were different, I would want to know so I could change my strategy.
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