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Postby dowoshek » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:00 am

Of course, realism of the game can't be the main point, but killing a man standing on the church in Santacruz from robbers' spawn point using pistol and hitting 2xlegs is not only making rifles useless but also is TOO funny ;)

How about using both ways: reducing damage-range for pistols and lowering spread for rifles?
Yup, "testing" is the keyword :)
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Postby mLy! » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:29 pm

Reduceing damage on range just seems too complicated to me, lets just reduce the damage no matter what distance. (colt and s&w pistols)

The accuracy of the colt pistol is what makes this game so fun, and tbh the accuracy is only good when shooting 'slow', the alternate fast shooting mode the accuracy is allready pretty bad and makes this alternate fire almost useless.
The accuracy of the remington en s&w pistol are allready pretty bad, definatly with the bad hitboxes in this game.

I agree that rifles need to be more attractive, but I gave my opinion on this before: rifles better accuracy and cheaper, colt pistol more expensive and less damage.

And people whining about pistol shooting from the hip need to reduce accuracy because it is not realistic.. please...
Players like this game becuase it is fun, not because of realisme.

And like mortem allready said, hitting with remington and s&w pistol is allready very hard in this game (bad hitboxes).

I WILL test this also, but I allready know without testing that this is wrong.

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Postby Pardner » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:47 pm

I played on the the server with CoolHand. My thoughts are:
  1. Pistols
    • I only noticed the spread on the Remington '58. I was in the saloon on Dry and I could not shoot Coolhand on the roofs accross the street. Now, is this reasonable? I hit him once.
    • Playing on Dawn Fort, I was able to to serious damage to Coolhand and the bot with the S&W. They were at the robber spawn, and I was near defender spawn. No noticable change with the S&W.
    • Peacemakers.... no troubles yet.
  2. Rifles
    • The Winchester did seem more accurate than the Colt. The instance I mentioned on Dry, I ran out of pistol ammo so I switched to the Winchester. Hit Coolhand on the first shot.
    • The colt seems less accurate. I agree with torhu on this one. The Colt has an increase rate of fire. The Winchester is be less expensive and more accurate, the colt is more expensive and has a faster fire rate. Maybe the prices need a little tweaking to make them competitive with eachother (like the peacemaker and the S&W)
  3. Shotguns... good for high pings and bad lag like I still seem to have

It would be nice to have a large match. It was a little tough testing weapon characteristics with someone who was also testing weapon characteristics. The best way to test the weapons is to play a standard game and see how they perform. If everyone starts using rifles and not pistols.... then maybe we need to change them a little and re-test. It would be nice to see the same amouut of pistol user (face it, pistols really make the game in my opinion) but with a rifle as a backup instead of a shotty.

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Postby Pardner » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:56 pm

I was VERY anti-shotgun way back when Joe Kari did his work on the shotgun spread. I was a proud "pistols only" gunslinger, and I was afraid of the shotgun becoming too powerful. After testing the stand-alone, I forgot all about Joe's work.

My point is, this is only testing. There are some people that want the weapons to be changed (me included). These changes will only be subtle intended to even the weapon balance.
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Postby ReD NeCKersoN » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:37 pm

3 posts removed that do not help the discussion.
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Postby ltmon » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:28 am

I'll throw my hat in the ring for increasing pistol spread and leaving damage falloff alone. All IMHO of course, but here's why...

Point 1, is simply that I agree the rifles need to be much more powerful than pistols at distance. Without that, they are almost worthless. Personally (in most maps) I only ever aim to buy the Sharps and scope occasionally and leave the other rifles alone.

Game wise increasing spread should not be characterized as "random", rather think about it as "statistics". In a game of poker, you'll occasionally take a big hit from a poor player when they get a lucky draw on the river. But if you know the game, know the odds and play it well the better player will always win in the end.

I don't mind a similar mechanic in an FPS at all: the player who knows the odds with distances and weapon types will overall win, even if a newbie gets a headshot or two in when they really don't deserve it.

I also think this is a better test of player skill than the random Counter Strike player who can point-and-click a mouse with devastating precision, but doesn't think too much about it. There needs to be skill with aiming of course, but I just don't think it should be the only skill.

I think balancing the spread for pistols perfectly to achieve this will be very hard. It really needs a lot of play testing to get it just right for SG.

L.

p.s. TeamIPX is now running a beta server, although it's not in the in game server list again for some reason. It's on the same IP, port 27961. Happy to test out some spread settings in our semi-regular games if you tell me what to do.
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Postby torhu » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:05 am

If you want to test, the instructions for changing weapon settings are here. The patch in mention is included in the beta. :)
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Postby torhu » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:25 am

There was one thing we forgot to do for this first beta. The legs are a bit too easy to hit with the current hit detection system. You'll hit even if you shoot between the legs.

To counter this, there was talk about reducing the damage multiplier for legs from 1.8 to 1.5. This will mean that it will take 3 leg shots to kill with a Peacemaker, instead of the current 2. It doesn't effect the effectiveness of the other pistols.


I expect some of you will think that the peacemakers are still too powerful. To actually get a noticeable difference in the number of hits to kill, damage would have to be lowered from 38 to 31. And the Schofield has a base damage of 30, so that's a bit too close. Spreadsheet with numbers here, look at the Hits to Kill sheet.

So if we lower the peacemaker's damage we'd have to do the same for the other two pistols. :|
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Postby Sucalakafufu » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:28 am

torhu wrote:So if we lower the peacemaker's damage we'd have to do the same for the other two pistols. :|


well that would be lame. since the remington is FAR too weak already :D
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Postby mLy! » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:56 pm

torhu wrote:There was one thing we forgot to do for this first beta. The legs are a bit too easy to hit with the current hit detection system. You'll hit even if you shoot between the legs.

To counter this, there was talk about reducing the damage multiplier for legs from 1.8 to 1.5. This will mean that it will take 3 leg shots to kill with a Peacemaker, instead of the current 2. It doesn't effect the effectiveness of the other pistols.


Finally!

torhu wrote:I expect some of you will think that the peacemakers are still too powerful. To actually get a noticeable difference in the number of hits to kill, damage would have to be lowered from 38 to 31. And the Schofield has a base damage of 30, so that's a bit too close.

So if we lower the peacemaker's damage we'd have to do the same for the other two pistols. :|


My opinion about this:
Yes reduce peacemaker damage to 31
Yes this will be close to the scoffield, but:
Peacemaker still has its advantages: reload one bullet + lower spread
And I would like to add a second advantage to the peacemaker: Lowering the spread on the alternate fire(1.5 instead of 3), this will make a single colt much more powerfull then a single scoffield.

And this will make the alternate fire for pistol not totally useless, and actually, the alternate fire for pistols is pretty cool. So a win-win situation imo
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Postby moRtem » Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:49 pm

mLy! wrote:Yes reduce peacemaker damage to 31
Yes this will be close to the scoffield, but:
Peacemaker still has its advantages: reload one bullet + lower spread


mm - reloading one bullet is a clear disadvantage in my opinion. i often even buy schofields because of the faster reload.
making damage equal while keeping the rest of the specs would make colts totally useless

i'd rather think about "does it make sense to be able to kill someone with just 2 legshots while at the same time it is impossible to protect this part of your body?" -- and in my opinion 3 shots at legs with colts is an Okey deal, while the effectivity on other body-parts feels alright. So the only logical consequence would be to reduce the damage multiplier for legs like torhu suggested. If reducing from 1.8 to 1.5 does the trick will need to be tested of course, but the idea is a good one in my opinion.

And I would like to add a second advantage to the peacemaker: Lowering the spread on the alternate fire(1.5 instead of 3), this will make a single colt much more powerfull then a single scoffield.


you ever seen someone using only one colt (except new players) ? -- i doubt that reducing the spread would make it attractive enough to be used --- but it wouldn't hurt if this suggestion would be realised


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Postby mLy! » Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:05 pm

I use a single colt in some situations yes.

And if the Alternate fire would become usefull by lowering the spread, I think single colt would even be better than Colt + Remington in some situations

moRtem wrote:
you ever seen someone using only one colt (except new players) ? -- i doubt that reducing the spread would make it attractive enough to be used --- but it wouldn't hurt if this suggestion would be realised


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ps: if we reduce colt damage to 31, we could also reduce reload speed or/and increase scoffield reload speed.
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Postby SmokeyBacon » Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:25 pm

I agree here, I think whatever the case, the colts are elevated too high above the other 2 pistols. I notice that the colt lightning and the lolchester are pretty similar statswise, so I see no reason why the remington, schofield and peacemaker can't be. I say lower the peacemaker damage to 31, and possibly even pump up the remington's damage a bit, so the 3 are grouped more closely.

And I also agree on the rifles point, I never buy the lightning or lolchester intentionally (unless mucking about in the lolchester's case...) simply because the pistols (all 3 of them) have greater accuracy over all ranges, even when you and the target are moving. The rifles are only useful against players who camp a lot and move very little. And god forbid you get stuck with a rifle when fighting in a close quarters interior. The increased damage is not worth it when your shots seem to hit less than a quarter of the times a pistol's shot hits.

As for shotguns, I only have 1 real issue with any of them, and that is decrease the remington 12 gauge's switch and reload times. I can see the intention and reason in making these longer but they are way too long compared to the sawnoff's switch and reload times. Decrease them so that they are fractionally longer than the sawnoff's, because at the moment they take an infuriatingly long amount of time (such that the 12 gauge is another weapon I never buy intentionally).
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Postby Pardner » Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:12 pm

SmokeyBacon wrote:I agree here, I think whatever the case, the colts are elevated too high above the other 2 pistols. I notice that the colt lightning and the lolchester are pretty similar statswise, so I see no reason why the remington, schofield and peacemaker can't be. I say lower the peacemaker damage to 31, and possibly even pump up the remington's damage a bit, so the 3 are grouped more closely.


My fear of doing that is our pistols become like all the Counter Strike pistol: excatly the same. There seems to be little difference between any of the counter strike pistols and there is no reason to buy the expensive one. (/me prepares to get flamed)

Raising the damage on the Remington and the S&W while decreasing the the reload time on the Colt only make the three guns similar. I feel that the more expensive the gun, the better the gun. I like how the S&W has lower damage but faster reload time than the Peacemakers. This creates a really good option.

My biggest problem with the weapons is that the rifles are not used. I think that this problem can be solved with out changing the characteristics of the pistols.
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Postby SmokeyBacon » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:09 pm

Pardner wrote:My biggest problem with the weapons is that the rifles are not used. I think that this problem can be solved with out changing the characteristics of the pistols.


I agree there, the rifles definitely need something to make them a more attractive option than pistols for engaging at long ranges. But with the pistol issue, the overpoweredness of the peacemaker is pretty much at the heart of the debate and I don't really see any other way of resolving it other than nerfing its damage.
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