Your choice

[dowoshek]

Hi,
I wonder what's the community's opinion about reward system we have in SG now. I think this is one of the things that make this game more 'original' but at the same time much less playable. Why? The essential answers are:

1. It's actually rewarding skillful players by much more powerful weapons... so they could even more easily kill the less skillful players. I know it is the way it'd be in wild west in reality, but... this is hardly logic when speaking about FPS computer game, don't you think?
2. It makes SG much less friendly for new players and less skillful people, also old players with worse reflexes and so on - please notice, that SKILL is not only about practice and experience It should be enough that the good players have the advantage of skill - giving them even more advantage is STEALING FUN from newbies and less skillful guys and AWARDING IT to 'pros'. It's the counter-robin-hood logic, destructive for this game's experience.
3. It's making BR mode more predictable and linear. A lot of matches would finish around 10-0 if not the good guys switching and skill-and-weapon-balancing teams during the match. Actually, from my experience at jeuxlinux.fr, a lot of players have to change teams few times in a match to balance the skill and weapon-power factors. It is not so painful in DM modes where cash is laid on ground but it has great impact on BR. Even if the skill of teams seems balanced it's usually very difficult to be back in game after your opponent gained money and weapon advantage.

I think much better for the gameplay would be reduction of money-impact. The game should be dependent on skill - it's really enough. And weapons would be changeable from a menu. Money could only play additional, not so essential, and rare part, like for example it could be used to buy some extra features (a bit more armory) or gatling gun.
Of course as a result the whole weapon-system would need completely new design with new damage, speed, distance and so on for every weapon.

[Juaro Juarez]

I think you shouldn't change the whole money/weapon system.
A good point would be to change the money gaining for each kill.
colt and remmington 12 gauge or sawed off kills should give less money then now.
But you shouldnt change the whole system of damage/speed/distance etc.
The weapons system is good now as it is. Just the money is a bit the problem.
Maybe we could add some 'at the ground lying money' for BR not just in DM.
And dowoshek, what about the point of finding/taking good at the ground lying weapons after some dead good guy dropped it.
That feature would totally fall off with your system.
It's just that ' YEah, i killed a good player, but where's my reward? I dont even get good weapons now'
And well i don't want this game to be more CS like(BTW i just know that it is like that in CS but i dont play it mayself ) to add some bountys.
e.g. after 3 kills without a death your bounty starts with 5$ and its getting better every kill without a death.
What about that? Think about it.

Yours
-Juaro

[Juaro Juarez]

Ehmm sorry i posted it twice....
Now have to write something into the edit of the second one.
Here you have
Sorryy...

[labruja]

I find the problem just like dowoshek - somewhat disturbing.
How about some system like getting more money for killing players with more frags? starting from i.e. second or third round...

[Spoon]

The prize/reward system is implemented just like that: The money you get when killing a player depends on his rank in the scoreboard. You get more money for better players. So better players should usually get less money.
Maybe the calculation of the reward should be adjusted so that this makes more of a difference.
I also always thought that almost no player didn't quite realize what this system was really doing. Maybe there should be some kind of feedback on how much money you just got.

[moRtem]

i basically agree with dowoshek.

That this subject is really a problem ingame, can mostly be seen when equally skilled players play vs each other. As soon as one player kills the other 1-2 times in a row, he is fully equipped while the opponent got nothing (except remington and schofield). In most maps this is an additional drawback, since those two weapons not only do no damage, but also are very inaccurate due to spread and make it almost impossible to hit.

You have to hit an opponent 5-6 times mostly, while he finishs you with 2 shots.

--

I just got a spontaneous idea:
The most fair way would probably be to randomly drop weapons near spawn at the beginning of the round (but both teams should get the same weapons then.. so let's say, there is a match 3v5 going on. So RANDOM chooses 5 pistols and 5 primary weapons plus 1-5 ammo-belts and 1-5 boiler plates.. and 1-5 dyn/molotov etc. And this set of weapons gets dropped NEAR both spawn-places. The players only start with one remington and then have to collect the weapons of choice. (to prevent players from taking away 2 good pistols, "drop" could be locked for the first ~10 seconds of a round)

This system would have a couple of good factors i believe:
1) both teams got the same weapons (-> fairness)
2) the team with less players gets the same number of weapons as the team with less players, so they are able to get a better equipment.
3) the game would be more dynamic, since not always the same weapons will be used.
4) When you kill someone, you'll be able to pickup his weapons as reward (-> probably you get a better primary.. or a better secondary, since you are stuck to one remington until the first kill).

--

like i said, this is just a spontaneous idea .. but probably acts as some sort of inspiration


/quit

[Pardner]

I agree with Spoon,


When I join a server with low/medium skilled players, I usually can jump to the top of the scoreboard very quickly. This is because I gain more money when I am at the bottom of the scoreboard. Once I hit the top, I have to struggle to get enough money to buy my good guns.

When I join a DM server with very low/low skilled players, I usually can do the same with just dual Remington '58s and I have $200 in my pocket.

BR is does cause problems. I think this is why Durango is so popular, sure the robbers have a weapon advantage, but the robbers have a position advantage.

The most fair way would probably be to randomly drop weapons near spawn at the beginning of the round .....

We have been doing this in some of the newer BR maps. The original maps seem to have better robber/defender balance where as the new ones need to help on side or the other.

4) When you kill someone, you'll be able to pickup his weapons as reward (-> probably you get a better primary.. or a better secondary, since you are stuck to one remington until the first kill).

Errr.... isn't this already implemented. Its always nice to get someone who is carrying fully loaded Colts!!

[Juaro Juarez]

Maybe, cause some guys still like this 'old,normal' style with nothing changed.
We could just invent any new gamemode, so that we do not need to get rid of old BR.
Just invent a new one!

[Joe Kari]

Like Spoon said, you currently get more money by killing someone better, and less killing someone worse.
There is also something called "social money" when you die few time without killing anything.

However, one year ago, I have added a cvar named
g_moneyrespawn

It is turned off by default, since it have not been approved as the standard.
If you set it to "1", you have some extra gold when you die with very low money.

For instance, the minimum money at respawn is 20$, with "g_moneyrespawn 1", the minimum is "20$ + one quarter of your money".

Code: Select all

So if you have :          When respawning you will have :

        0$                            20$
        4$                            21$
        8$                            22$
        12$                           23$
        16$                           24$
        20$                           25$
        24$                           26$

(no change after 26$)


So if you enable it, someone that still have some money when dying could easily buy a peacemaker.

[Sucalakafufu]

During BR, if you spawn and don't buy anything, the next round you will receive $10. So you will have $30 in total and could even by a Colt Lightning if you wanted to.

As for the money system in general, I feel that it is mostly ok. I feel that the system could get tweaked just a little.

It's making BR mode more predictable and linear. A lot of matches would finish around 10-0 if not the good guys switching and skill-and-weapon-balancing teams during the match. Actually, from my experience at jeuxlinux.fr, a lot of players have to change teams few times in a match to balance the skill and weapon-power factors. It is not so painful in DM modes where cash is laid on ground but it has great impact on BR. Even if the skill of teams seems balanced it's usually very difficult to be back in game after your opponent gained money and weapon advantage.

um isn't this the case with any match in ANY game if one side has more of the good players? When both sides are pretty even, the game could go either way. I'm not sure what to say but in my experience PING plays a much larger factor than weapons and cash does. Tactics also are a huge part of it. If two teams were to play BR with similar pings, the team with less cash can always outsmart the other team (of course this assumes the team with less cash is the better team).

As soon as one player kills the other 1-2 times in a row, he is fully equipped while the opponent got nothing (except remington and schofield). In most maps this is an additional drawback, since those two weapons not only do no damage, but also are very inaccurate due to spread and make it almost impossible to hit.

I have to disagree with the accuracy of the remington and the schofield. The schofield is slightly inaccurate, yes, but the remington is just as accurate as the colt peacemaker. Also, they do a good amount of damage (well the schofield does), you just have to aim at hitboxes that will give more damage (unlike a peacemaker where u can just shoot out a guys legs).

[mLy!]

This isn't really a problem with the money system, but a problem because of the overpowered colt.
Another issue is that the most expensive weapons are useless, and new players tend to want to buy those expensive weapons expecting them to be good.

A solution to the weapon/damage system has been discussed in the past and everybody here knows my opinion so no need te repeat.
Additionally the system explained by Spoon can be increased a little bit.

Actually I would like it if I would earn less money. I always get 200 very fast and i never have to think about what to buy because I alsways have enough. Maybe we can cap the money at 100$ ?

[SmokeyBacon]

I don't really see much problem with the system, it's just the few somewhat inbalanced weapons that make it seem this way. Besides, the money lying round on the map helps badly performing players out. A big money bag can allow them to buy a schofield, a few more bucks till a peacemaker.

[releppes]

The prize/reward system is implemented just like that: The money you get when killing a player depends on his rank in the scoreboard. You get more money for better players. So better players should usually get less money.
Maybe the calculation of the reward should be adjusted so that this makes more of a difference.
I also always thought that almost no player didn't quite realize what this system was really doing. Maybe there should be some kind of feedback on how much money you just got.

Maybe have mini thumbnails of "Wanted" flyers for each player. The flyers would get constantly updated during the game. Then as you collect a bounty, the flyer would get crossed out and removed. And of course play the "ca-ching" as you collect the bounty.

[releppes]

Hi,
I wonder what's the community's opinion about reward system we have in SG now. I think this is one of the things that make this game more 'original' but at the same time much less playable. Why? The essential answers are:

1. It's actually rewarding skillful players by much more powerful weapons... so they could even more easily kill the less skillful players. I know it is the way it'd be in wild west in reality, but... this is hardly logic when speaking about FPS computer game, don't you think?
2. It makes SG much less friendly for new players and less skillful people, also old players with worse reflexes and so on - please notice, that SKILL is not only about practice and experience It should be enough that the good players have the advantage of skill - giving them even more advantage is STEALING FUN from newbies and less skillful guys and AWARDING IT to 'pros'. It's the counter-robin-hood logic, destructive for this game's experience.
3. It's making BR mode more predictable and linear. A lot of matches would finish around 10-0 if not the good guys switching and skill-and-weapon-balancing teams during the match. Actually, from my experience at jeuxlinux.fr, a lot of players have to change teams few times in a match to balance the skill and weapon-power factors. It is not so painful in DM modes where cash is laid on ground but it has great impact on BR. Even if the skill of teams seems balanced it's usually very difficult to be back in game after your opponent gained money and weapon advantage.

I think much better for the gameplay would be reduction of money-impact. The game should be dependent on skill - it's really enough. And weapons would be changeable from a menu. Money could only play additional, not so essential, and rare part, like for example it could be used to buy some extra features (a bit more armory) or gatling gun.
Of course as a result the whole weapon-system would need completely new design with new damage, speed, distance and so on for every weapon.

I haven't played that much, and I'm definitely among the weaker opponents, but I for one like the money/weapon system. It's true that better players will rack up money faster, but the bounty system keeps this somewhat in check. A weaker player, such as myself, can steady a good shot to collect a large bounty whereas a good player would have to make several kills. I also think the bounty system is one of the unique things about SG that makes it stand out against other FPS games.

However, I do think weapons/physics need improvement. I don't think pistols should have the accuracy and range that they do. I also think movement should affect accuracy. Seriously, jumping and still getting a head shot shouldn't be as easy as so many players make it seem. It might discourage some of the players who like to take advantage of lag while shooting. I also view this as making the game a little more realistic. Just like how getting hit causes you to loose balance. I think movement should do the same.

[Joe Kari]

Seriously, jumping and still getting a head shot shouldn't be as easy as so many players make it seem. It might discourage some of the players who like to take advantage of lag while shooting.

Getting a head shot while jumping is just pure luck, your weapon's spread is just too big to do it at will.